I just saw a couple Delton brass locos on ebay. I didn’t know they ever made any brass stuff. Funny thing is, they looked kind of toy-like. I don’t see the point of making brass locos if they aren’t going to be reasonably accurate models.
The Delton Brass locos were not “fabricated” as we know them. They often used just brass castings for pretty well everything. Even the tender shell of the 4-4-0 was cast brass/bronze. Which made them very heavy and greatly reduced the hauling power of the locos. They ran OK but were mainly aimed at the collector market.
As to the toy like appearance that is down to who made them. At the time LGB, Kalamzoo and Delton were basically the only Large Scale models around. Most of which were very toy like in appearance.
To my knowledge, at that time the only “fabricated” brass loco in Large Scale was a small Shay in 1:24 scale made by an early Japanese/Korean brass maker. Nice model, wrong scale.
Ray here is a great article written about the history Phil Jensen Story
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/stevec/MLS-Topic-Article/MLS-Articles/ThePhilJensenStory-2.pdf
If the above does not work go to this post a scroll
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/23/aft/121621/afv/topic/Default.aspx#240044
Thanks for the info, it’s interesting to read the history of these companies.
Hi Tony Walsham:
The scale of 1:24 is not wrong.
It is the track gauge that is wrong!
I still do not understand why the Delton folks went to the trouble of producing individually researched models and then not hand building in 1:20.3 scale !
I still maintain that 1:24 would have been best for large scale narrow gauge. All that was needed was 1 1/2" gauge track. The K-27 for instance would be a manageable sized model for far more hobbyists than the present 1:20.3 K-27. Storage space requirements for 1:24 scale is less than 1:20.3 scale which encourages more product sales as the train hobbyists only stops buying product when he can no longer find room to store the stuff! Train hobbyists have no resistance to the latest cute loco or coach.
David Fletcher is the expert on the history of Delton trains.
Website:
http://4largescale.com/fletch/
Only the CP Huntington and the Mason Bogie are prototypical models. The remainder are all freelance models.
Norman
Norman,
when Delton released their brass locomotives, it was circa mid-1980’s. Try and get an original Mason bogie these days for under $3000 plus. Even the little ‘ugly’ switcher draws big bucks! At this time LGB had only just released their Mogul and Americans were going ga-ga over a strange little supposedly American LGB loco and powered tender. 1/20.3 scale was only really given any credence in the early 1990’s (around 1993) and was then only by concentrated effort by a small handful of diehard modellers.
Can you guess what scale Accucraft released as their first brass locomotives and rolling stock? Suprise, suprise, 1/24 scale. In the 1980's fidelity to scale was only secondary to the model that was being produced. Maybe you are only aware of 1/20.3 scale's current importance, but only twenty years ago in its infancy, few gave it much of a chance at survival.Producing commercial models in 1/24th was not a mistake. Pioneer large scale modelers were already scratchbuilding and kitbashing in 1/24th scale. 1/24th scale was the natural choice, being twice the size of O scale and an easy scale to work with. The mistake was creating 1/24th scale products to the wrong track gauge.
Yeah, I know the argument that producing new track would have been expensive, and it might have been difficult to convince owners of existing layouts to replace their LGB track. On the other hand, with so few people actually doing large scale back then, it might not have been all that difficult to introduce correctly-scaled American prototype trains along with proper narrow gauge track. But we’ll never know. All we can do is speculate on what might have been.
It would have taken some pretty deep pockets making a long-term investment, and the early manufacturers obviously didn’t have that.
Ain’t nuthin wrong with 1:24… it’s quite proper for modelling 'Cape Gauge" (42")… There were quite a few mine and some early industrial shortlines built to this gauge… as well as lines in South Africa, Australia, and Japan…and even a common carrier in Newfoundland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_gauge
The math is simple 1/2" = 1 foot, you can get diecast vehicles, dollhouse and architectural model items in this scale as well. Stop and think about it…Which is REALLY “worse”? The track gauge being off by 1/4" or everything else either out of scale or outrageously expensive?
Oh, and another reason for 1:24 - the 1:24 US outline stuff “plays well” (physical size wise) with 1:22.5(metre gauge) Euro stuff as they had a smaller loading gauge over there
Mik said:
Ain't nuthin wrong with 1:24... it's quite proper for modelling 'Cape Gauge" (42").. There were quite a few mine and some early industrial shortlines built to this gauge... as well as lines in South Africa, Australia, and Japan...and even a common carrier in Newfoundland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_gaugeThe math is simple 1/2" = 1 foot, you can get diecast vehicles, dollhouse and architectural model items in this scale as well. Stop and think about it…Which is REALLY “worse”? The track gauge being off by 1/4" or everything else either out of scale or outrageously expensive?
Oh, and another reason for 1:24 - the 1:24 US outline stuff “plays well” (physical size wise) with 1:22.5(metre gauge) Euro stuff as they had a smaller loading gauge over there
Dont forget the Kittatinny Mt RR is Cape Gauge as wwll.
My first experiment with scratch building in large scale used 1:24 scale. It was in 1987. I used the guts from the Walthers 20 ton HO crane for the hand derrick. The carbody was built from basswood and balsa. The barrels are English Leather bottle tops with drafting tape bands. The spike keg was a Delton detail item.
(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/davemeashey/DandTCar01.jpg)
(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/davemeashey/DandTCar02.jpg)
Not many details were available yet. The stake pockets were cut from Crystal Lite aluminum beverage powder containers. The brake cylinder and reservoir were made from cylindrical mechanical pencil lead boxes. The queenposts and turnbuckles were made from dollhouse bannister posts, and the truss rods were made from monofilament grass trimmer line. You made do with whatever you could cobble up.
(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/davemeashey/DandTCar05.jpg)
Have fun, David Meashey
Hi Tim Brien:
On ebay, the CP Huntington sold in the recent past for around 1,000.00 and the switcher locos sold for around 750.00 . The prices have really plummetted on these Delton brass locos. I guess it is the supply of accucrate 1:20.3 brass models from Accucraft.
With O Gauge at the scale of 1:48, it was a logical progression to have large scale at 1:24 being that H.O stands for half of O scale.
1:24 scale was an opportunity lost by Bachmann. I realise 1:20.3 is the new and permanent standard for large scale narrow gauge. However, all of the detail in the latest 1:20.3 Bachmann rolling stock and locomotives could have been realised in 1:24 models of manageable size requiring less storage space.
Norman
TonyWalsham said:
The Delton Brass locos were not "fabricated" as we know them. They often used just brass castings for pretty well everything. Even the tender shell of the 4-4-0 was cast brass/bronze. Which made them very heavy and greatly reduced the hauling power of the locos. They ran OK but were mainly aimed at the collector market.As to the toy like appearance that is down to who made them. At the time LGB, Kalamzoo and Delton were basically the only Large Scale models around. Most of which were very toy like in appearance.
To my knowledge, at that time the only “fabricated” brass loco in Large Scale was a small Shay in 1:24 scale made by an early Japanese/Korean brass maker. Nice model, wrong scale.
[b]Tony,
About 1966-7?, Model Engineering Works imported a largescale Colorado Midland 4-6-0 in brass in 1:32 scale. It was apparently to the same prototype as its HO model. I had a chance to buy one at the time but I was deep into On3 then. The run was just 25 models and I don’t know if all were produced. It was imported because the MEW owner wanted it for an outdoor railroad or so I was told. Kinda wish I’d bought one now.
Also Precision Scale imported West Side Lumber Shays nos. 14 and 15 in 1:24 scale. I had the number 15. It came with trucks to run on 45mm track but extra trucks were available to regauge it to accurate 1.5" gauge. A really beautiful model. Just imagine their On3 model only bigger. [/b]
1981 also saw KMT produce a brass C-16 in 1:24 scale, based on the 1952 format of D&RGW C-16 #278. The models however for the most part were painted in Bee colours and lettered for #268. They were pretty good models for the time, a little underpowered, and a bit fast, but detail was good.
As to the toy-like appearance, it usually comes down to the mis-understanding of period paint and colours at that time, since most of the Delton Brass models represent 1860s and 1870s locos, with only really the Mason and CP Huntington reasonably scale models. But that said, I think people who dont really understand that period will still call a model of that era toylike, even when it is accurately painted! The CPH is painted mostly per the CSRM colours, (SP restoration of 1914). There were more and more cast whole assemblies to Delton models as the company progressed. Earlier models had sheet brass assembly as well as castings. Cabs were cast for all models, as were boilers. Tenders were usually fabricated, with only their last brass engine, the 4-4-0 having a hollow cast tender in one piece!
The MEW engines come up on ebay from time to time, one sold a coupe of years ago for $400 having been reguaged to 1.5". However as stock models, the MEW engines were not gauge 1, but ran on a wider guage. The MEW owner did indeed building a garden railway, and run these models. There have been articles about the railway and loco in NG&SLG in the past.
Thanks for the corrections David.
We can always rely on the best LS historian around to get the facts right.
BTW. Those Delton pics I offered you before I moved up North are still available at Woodmason road if you are interested. If not, Jen wants to toss them out.
Yes please Tony!
Please drop me an email and lets get it done.
Thanks mate,
David.
E on the way.
Dave Meashey said:Damn nice cobbling, Dave!
...You made do with whatever you could cobble up....