Large Scale Central

Curious about possible gas saving engine?

General Discussion
#1

Lately, after viewing many many many car commercials displaying 3D animations and graphics of killer new engines for big new Ford pickups and so on and so called great gas mileage and such, I kept wondering why it feels to me that it seems they are stuck in the same rut of doing the standard old piston style motors and it got me to thinking, isn’t there some way they could convert a steam engine’s basic model over into a normal gas engine, as seen in this GIF animation, where you see the steam never ending fueling the cylinder in both directions that the piston moved, but make it be a gas fueled piston instead? I can’t see it yet, though I’ve been studying on the concepts, I still feel like there “might” be something everyone, including myself, keep over looking, no? Check out the default steam rig of the pistons and you tell me, couldn’t there be a better way to make use of the piston on a normal gas engine where the up and down 4 stroke piston could be converted to use BOTH sides of the piston, just like you see in the steam piston? Yes, I get the point about the exhaust and all, but I feel like there is “something” there staring us all right in the face and no one is looking there? If it could be done, I personally feel this would be thee new ultimate gas saving motor if a few things could be worked out on the firing and exhaust of the pistons?

Will have to stare at this a while and think on it for a few and see if there is any possibility for such a thing? And yes, I’m sure millions of others have probably already thought of such a thing, but hey, people miss the obvious loads of times, so ya never know, right? :wink: …md :slight_smile:

#2

I am not an engineer (Mechanical, not train driver) but steam has no measurable potential.
That is why it is still used to propel modern Nuclear Aircraft Carriers, for instance.
Gas will burn at a certain temperature and has a known energy rating.
Steam is much, much, more powerful when compressed.

#3
Mark Dunakin said:
... fueling the cylinder in both directions that the piston moved,.
Expect that would lead to more parts, weight, complexity. Prime advantage, as far as my understanding, of gas motors is power to weight ratio. Maintenance access would be an issue too.
#4

Dear All,

For efficient stationary power, Lister and Listeroid (copies) diesel engines with large flywheels:

http://www.utterpower.com/

http://cujet.com/html/other_projects.html

(Scroll down)

Joe Satnik

Edit: add hot link

#5

Mark what if it were done like a two stroke motor? each down ward motion on them is a power stroke. looks to me as if it could be done with out tow much truble. After all steam has to exit some were and come in some were so why should a fuel air mix be any different then steam.

#6

Hehehe, ok, I think I didn’t make myself clear here :slight_smile:
What I was getting at, wasn’t to make a “steam” type engine for normal usage, but use a similar mechanical structuring, BUT, using gas “instead” of steam.
And as I mentioned, yes, it would need to deal with the exhaust, but looking at how the basic and I mean VERY basic set up that the two piston steam setup uses, I would think that somehow the top piston, which is the one that let’s the steam come in one side and then the other and then back to the other side and back again repeating itself over and over, would or could be a more efficient method then the current zillion parts setup that modern day gas motors all use, i.e. all the valve rods and such and like that, wowsers, just look at the next Ford commercial where they show their newest engine and you’ll see what I mean LOL
That thing is totally over loaded with far too many moving parts just to do the same old exact things that gas engines have been doing since they invented them and really nothing since has much changed at all.
I would think that after nearly 150 years of gas engines that by this point in time they’d have come up with something better, more efficient and not that lame Mazda rotary motor, that could of had some chance had they designed that thing correctly too.

And yes, I thought of the two stroke engine as well, but that requires a bit lack of stability, at least for normal users who really wouldn’t have the slightest clue how to keep the upkeep on them and anyone who has ridden on and dwelt with two stroke bikes, like I have in my past life, will tell you that they are not great for sitting still in an idle mode, where as a 4 stroke can handle all that with pretty much zero issues.
So, to me, it feels like, this sort of steam engine is really soooo close and right there on the edge of something great, but no one bothers to look at them with a new eye and thus dismisses them out of hand, mostly.

What I plan to do, since just looking at this little GIF animation doesn’t help much, is to after I finish modeling that part for my steam engine, is to then save out that part of the workings and see if I can modify it in 3D where then I can rotate the thing around while it is in animation mode (playing) and that should be able to give me some better insight to how things look from other view points and maybe see what it is I and everyone is missing, that is if we all are truly missing something, which I think we all are.

OK, now, for the GIF animation above, I am viewing it like this, so we all can follow my mindset :slight_smile:
Let’s pretend that all the red is the fuel.
Then, let’s pretend that the white areas are of course the exhaust.
I think there could be missing a couple of openings there or something to allow the expulsion of the exhaust and the injection of the fuel.
Seems to me, that without making it like the standard two stroke system, you could maybe “fake” the two stroke theme while keeping the concepts of the four stroke model intact, no?
Hope that last part made some sort of sense to you all? hehehe

What keeps tripping me out too, is how as large as the main piston is, the actual thing that runs it all, is some tiny little arm with a tiny little piston of it’s own that does all the real work of injecting the gas (steam, fumes, vapor, whatever the real words would be?).
Look at how all it does is barely move and IT allows EVERYTHING to come and go, simply amazing in it’s simplicity.
So, I say, time to modernize this concept and get on with the gas saving area, instead of all these expensive and highly lame so called “green” vehicles they keep trying to pawn off on the American public these days LOL

Quote:
Expect that would lead to more parts, weight, complexity. Prime advantage, as far as my understanding, of gas motors is power to weight ratio. Maintenance access would be an issue too.
And this is why I feel using the steam engine basic model would actually be "less" parts involved then the current gas engines are, with all those push rod springs and so on. I'm a Nascar geek and every year I study on the engines they use and just look at the piston only firing in ONE direction and (IMHO) "wasting" the return movement of that piston, other then to rid itself of burnt gas. Lame LOL

OK, Don’t want to write too long here, I have that tendency to sometimes do that, so be ware hehehe

thanx too guys for your own interest and Joe, I’ll look at those links right now…md :slight_smile:

#7

Almost like a Wankel?

#8

Some lister images (ignore the false hits):

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=lister+diesel+engine+diagram&FORM=IGRE&qpvt=lister+diesel+engine+diagram

I suspect that it can run so efficiently because the large flywheels “absorb” heavy impulse loads that would stall a small displacement motor without a flywheel. (A small displacement motor idles more efficiently.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYB_-ATJgFs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhbknz6nvhw

I’m guessing these are just 4 stroke diesel engines with simple mechanical fuel injection.

Joe Satnik

Edit: Added last sentence and signature.

#9

Well, Joe, thanx for these links, I only just now had the chance here to check them out, back has been killing me too much lately to sit here at the puter the past more then a week.
But I have always loved them old timey motors and such, even when we go to the fair, personally, I could spend my whole day just in the section where they show off all these cool old
school motors, since they are so amazing and just a pure joy to watch them run and listen to that cooky sound they make that almost sounds like cartoon sound effects hehe

I do wonder how much people really NEED to have the giant fly wheels though, but not being an expert on that,
I can’t say, but my theory would be, try to see IF you could exchange them with gear ratios instead of simple humongous fly wheels?
I know the fly wheel run and keeps things running purely by it’s weight and that may be why you can not use a geared system of sorts?
But, if I had a motor like that, it would be great fun to experiment for myself and see for myself what might or could possibly happen with various methods of gearing?
Instead of simply taking other people’s words on that is how it is and so be it.
I say these things, because after being into 3D now since the late `80s, I have found over and over and over again,
that what everyone claims is the ONLY way something can be done, BAMM, I find some much simpler
way to get the same job done and sometimes in a much better, higher quality way too.
That was why I started making my own tutorials years ago, to not only show and be helpful to others,
but to prove that things can in fact be done in some totally different manor then everyone is accustomed to thinking and animating/modeling.

I’ll see people making all these crazy insane overly complex setups for something that I look at and wonder, why are they doing it that way when you could cheat and do it some easy way hehe
I say cheat, meaning, some things can be faked or something else and will look exactly like the complicated method they all say is the right way to do the job.
I found a lot of people have this need to just buy some plugin for their product (software) when they could of used what tools they already had and much easier too!

So, coming from years of that mindset I tend to now never take what the rest of the world claims is fact, as not necessarily true.
To me, if it feels like there is a better way to do the same job, though you currently don’t see it yet, it most likely is a better way to do it :slight_smile:
You sometimes just have to keep staring at something and letting it gel in your brain for a time and you may suddenly see something you didn’t before?

…md :slight_smile: