Large Scale Central

Crisis - How Many Times?

General Discussion
#21
David Hill said:
M. Verbrugge said:
Geoff George said:
Like him or not, Obama told us what he'd do and he's doing it, something Bush seemed incapable of doing. I respect the man for that.
Honestly, he told us what he was going to do and has not kept his word. He said: I will not appoint anyone to Washington that has ever been a lobbyist. He has at least 5 appointees that were lobbyist. He said: I want to cease the partisan bickering. But he has continued the attack on his detractors and even his AG called us all cowards. He said: I will bring our troops home within the first month of my administration. But he is not reducing the troop level to any degree in Iraq, and he is increasing the troop level (a troop surge, similar to what he was against in Iraq) in Afghanistan.

He even said in his speech last night that the “Stimulus Bill” [sic] he signed “did not contain any pork.” Does ANYONE believe that whopper? This is only the beginning. Listen carefully, and drop the blinders.


Mr. Hill,

You have edited your post to make it appear as though Mr. George is pleased with Mr. Obama’s performance. While I do not see eye to eye with Geoff I believe he would be somewhat dismayed to have my words accredited to him. To paraphrase your words…Perhaps you had your blinders on when posting.

#22

I did no editing I simply clicked Reply and Post on your post with the “Like him or not…” dig at President Bush. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the Moderator.

#23
M. Verbrugge said:
Geoff George said:
Mike like it or not the Iraq war was due to this little thing called 9/11. Maybe you remimber seeing and reading about it. Now, before you get into your lib spin crap. ...
To use your own language Geoff, this sounds like conservative crap. Bush blew post 9/11 foreign policy big time, inexcusable. I lauded his dad's Iraq war policy and was angry Sr. decided to give up and leave it unfinished. Bush Sr. did a great job with a few mistakes...Junior made mostly mistakes and the occasional good deed. I cannot respect the conservative view or the Republican party until they "man-up" to the disaster the last eight years have been and call it like it is. Jindal's rebuttal was a step in the right direction but the GOP has a long way to go before I will ever support them financially again.

Like him or not, Obama told us what he’d do and he’s doing it, something Bush seemed incapable of doing. I respect the man for that.


Here is what happens when I click on “reply and post”. See a difference?

#24
M. Verbrugge said:
Geoff George said:
Mike like it or not the Iraq war was due to this little thing called 9/11. Maybe you remimber seeing and reading about it. Now, before you get into your lib spin crap. ...
To use your own language Geoff, this sounds like conservative crap. Bush blew post 9/11 foreign policy big time, inexcusable. I lauded his dad's Iraq war policy and was angry Sr. decided to give up and leave it unfinished. Bush Sr. did a great job with a few mistakes...Junior made mostly mistakes and the occasional good deed. I cannot respect the conservative view or the Republican party until they "man-up" to the disaster the last eight years have been and call it like it is. Jindal's rebuttal was a step in the right direction but the GOP has a long way to go before I will ever support them financially again.

Like him or not, Obama told us what he’d do and he’s doing it, something Bush seemed incapable of doing. I respect the man for that.


Here’s my post, before I delete all between “To use your own language Geoff…” and “.them financially again.”

#25
M. Verbrugge said:
Geoff George said:
Mike like it or not the Iraq war was due to this little thing called 9/11. Maybe you remimber seeing and reading about it. Now, before you get into your lib spin crap. ...
Like him or not, Obama told us what he'd do and he's doing it, something Bush seemed incapable of doing. I respect the man for that.
Here, again is after. Hope this resolves the major issue with this.
#26
tom huisenga said:
Mike, no I am not going to attack you, just explains a lot of your thinking, people who have never worked in the private sector or owned a business, tend to think like you, most have never done anything for themselves, and do not understand that people do not like gov going in our pockets to STEAL our hard earned money.

They think government is the answer for everything, including you, but it is not government that made this country great, it is and was individuals who rose to accept the challenges in front of them, they DID NOT have the government looking over there shoulder to help them, they did it on there OWN.


Huisenga, you don’t know anything about me or “people like me,” “who have never done anything for themselves.” You just think you do. You have no idea what I have or have not done in my life. I know nothing of you, who you are or what you do or did, so I would never presume to lecture you on “your kind” or “people like you.” But I know self-righteous ignorance when I see it.

I’ve had a lot of email exchanges with Ric, and I think that while we often disagree we have come to a mutual understanding and mutual respect. But he can speak to that himself. But you, when confronted with an opinion different from your own, need to react by condemning the person who has the opinion. It’s the sign of a weak mind

#27

Well done Mike, you just said you did not like people attacking you, I did not attack who you are, I meant in the general way you think, it was not meant to disrespect you or what you did with your life, but when you are confronted with it you said the exact same thing you accused me of, you attack me for my weak mind, if you dont like the message you kill the messenger.

What I said was people who do not work in the private sector or own your own business, do think different, why is that attacking who you are? Just because you think different does not make you bad, just different, there are lots of different opionions, you try to learn from each one.

Weak mind, I like that, it shows who you truly are.

tom h

#28

Ridiculous–read your own words. You even had to stick in that little bit about “educators!” And now you don’t have the originality to form your own argument–you’re attempting to steal mine!

You made a personal charge about “people like you” who “have never done anything.” When you said “people like you” which “you” was anyone supposed to think you meant? I pointed out that you knew nothing about me, nothing at all, and yet you think you can declare what “people like me” are all about. I called that ignorance, and I’ll stand by that. You may be a very nice fellow–I have no idea–and if you didn’t feel obliged to fit me into your neat little box of prejudices about “people like me” you might find that I’m not what you think.

#29

By the sound of it the economy needs either the infamous Joe the plumber (the Republicans dropped him like a hot potato when they realised his true situation) or maybe Tom the garbageman to solve the country’s ills. Tom really sounds like he knows how to run a small business, so that obviously makes him well equipped to handle an economy. Bush Jnr. is a Texan and he knew where to find oil, even if it was a long way from Texas. Maybe Cheney could smell the dollars in the wind or was it just the underarm body odour of all those terrorists hiding, firstly in Afghanistan and then Iraq. Coincidence, maybe?. Lucky Cheney and Rumsfeld were dismissed before Cheney sniffed in the direction of Iran (lots of oil and we know that there must be lots of terrorists there as they are Muslims and Republicans know that every Muslim is a terrorist, like every Democrat is a commy-loving socialist).

#30
M. Verbrugge said:
David Hill said:
M. Verbrugge said:
Honestly, he told us what he was going to do and has not kept his word. He said: I will not appoint anyone to Washington that has ever been a lobbyist. He has at least 5 appointees that were lobbyist. He said: I want to cease the partisan bickering. But he has continued the attack on his detractors and even his AG called us all cowards. He said: I will bring our troops home within the first month of my administration. But he is not reducing the troop level to any degree in Iraq, and he is increasing the troop level (a troop surge, similar to what he was against in Iraq) in Afghanistan.

He even said in his speech last night that the “Stimulus Bill” [sic] he signed “did not contain any pork.” Does ANYONE believe that whopper? This is only the beginning. Listen carefully, and drop the blinders.


Mr. Hill,

You have edited your post to make it appear as though Mr. George is pleased with Mr. Obama’s performance. While I do not see eye to eye with Geoff I believe he would be somewhat dismayed to have my words accredited to him. To paraphrase your words…Perhaps you had your blinders on when posting.


Mr. Verbrugge
See we can agree with some things.
:slight_smile:

#31

Mike, I believe Tom’s response could be read as personal, but as often happens, the focus is off his main point of self-reliance versus our (USA) increasing “nanny state”.

I have argued, to no avail with workers, union and free, that their employer/union does NOT give them health insurance, half of FICA, paid vacations, retirement benefits, etc. They have what I’ve called “slave mentality”. They are led to believe that “massah” gives them stuff, as if at the end of each month the owner of the company they work for or union president reaches into his pocket and benevolently pays their health insurance premiums.

I have been touting for decades that ALL payroll deductions be eliminated by law and the equivalent earnings be included in their total. Employees then are free to buy whatever health insurance plan they choose, and may voluntarily, on April 15th to mail a check to Uncle Sam.

If individuals want a “mommy” to care for them, they can become wealthy enough to hire a butler, join the military or become a priest.

#32
David Hill said:
Mike, I believe Tom's response could be read as personal, but as often happens, the focus is off his main point of self-reliance versus our (USA) increasing "nanny state".

I have argued, to no avail with workers, union and free, that their employer/union does NOT give them health insurance, half of FICA, paid vacations, retirement benefits, etc. They have what I’ve called “slave mentality”. They are led to believe that “massah” gives them stuff, as if at the end of each month the owner of the company they work for or union president reaches into his pocket and benevolently pays their health insurance premiums.


The reason this argument fails is that union workers know perfectly well that the employers don’t “give” them anything. They know they had to fight, and fight hard, for that clause in their contract. They don’t think their employer is benevolent, if they did, there would be the no union. The history of the Union movement in this country is littered with the broken and dead bodies of people who fought for the union’s right to bargain collectively with management. Union member don’t think employers give them anything. They think that through their efforts, they fought management into giving them a better deal. Similarly I don’t believe that the government is my “mama”, giving me stuff for nothing. I know perfectly well where it gets its money because I pay taxes. The government taxes me and uses that money to accomplish things that private enterprise won’t or can’t. It’s not some kind of apocalyptic struggle or the demise of rugged individualism, it’s a deal that most Americans are reasonably happy with. That mature adults don’t share your beliefs does not make them “serf” or “slaves.”

#33

Well then you mike are the exception to what I have found in my own discussions with union members and free workers.

The union members I know didn’t have to fight for anything, maybe they were denied the right to work by their union reps (strike), but they didn’t “feel the pain” of a long fought battle. Those days are over. We have a labor shortage in this country evident by the influx of illegal aliens and partly due to the 1.5 million potentially productive US citizens killed in the womb annually. (Keep this on track, David says to himself.)

Most citizens pay in a whole lot fewer tax dollars then they take out in the form of government services and cash. If given the opportunity to pay in or not to pay taxes, what would you do? If so how much?

What “services” other than national defense and international trade and tariffs does the government provide that can NOT be provided better by private enterprise? This one I’d like to read.

#34

You guys are more fun than cherry bombs and a hill of fire ants on a hot July Oklahoma afternoon.

I offered a challenge to play a game while listening to BHO and the opposition response. If you watch with a pencil and paper in hand, you pay more attention to the details. Did anyone really think opinions were going to be changed by another political speech?

45% of this Country thinks one way, 45% think the other. 10% decide elections, however we now have 12% or more that voted because of the perceived heritage or color of a persons skin. We got to live with this and get to make a new decision again in two years.

Suck it up, enjoy life and enjoy the fact we can openly debate this stuff in a relatively “Civil” manner. This may be a shock to some of you, but arguments here on LSC are not being monitored by our government and swaying the way policies are decided. Then again, maybe they are. :wink:

#35
Geoff George[/quote said:
Mr. Verbrugge See we can agree with some things. :)
Just watching your back! :)
#36

I was shop steward of my local of the SEIU back in the early 80s. The people in my union–maintenance and janitorial workers–were keenly aware that their wage was negotiated though the union and that they were stronger in the union than out of it. They paid payroll taxes, and got as far as I could tell, precious little in return. They were mostly black, working hard at unpleasant jobs; they had chosen work over welfare and the union was one of the few things that made the wage livable. So don’t go telling me they are “serfs” or dependent on “mama.”

I could give along list of things that I think govt. does better than private enterprise, but I doubt you would be persuaded. It’s an article of faith in some quarters–like belief in the literal truth of the Bible–that free markets are always better. Recent events in the financial markets suggest that’s not true. Even Alan Greenspan has come to disagree. Greenspan was a big fan of Ayn Rand–he knew Rand personally and called her a friend. But look at this:

“In Congressional testimony on October 23, 2008, Greenspan acknowledged that he was “partially” wrong in opposing regulation and stated “Those of us who have looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholder’s equity – myself especially – are in a state of shocked disbelief.”[27] Referring to his free-market ideology, Greenspan said: “I have found a flaw. I don’t know how significant or permanent it is. But I have been very distressed by that fact.” Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA) then pressed him to clarify his words. “In other words, you found that your view of the world, your ideology, was not right, it was not working,” Waxman said. “Absolutely, precisely,” Greenspan replied. “You know, that’s precisely the reason I was shocked, because I have been going for 40 years or more with very considerable evidence that it was working exceptionally well.” [66] Greenspan admitted fault in opposing regulation of derivatives and acknowledged that financial institutions didn’t protect shareholders and investments as well as he expected. During testimony, Rep. John Yarmuth (D-KY) compared Greenspan to Bill Buckner, the Boston Red Sox first baseman whose fielding error caused the team’s loss in the 1986 World Series”

#37

Alan Greenspan is a hack. He also stated once that the USA needs to return to the gold standard.

I do not doubt the work ethic of anyone, union or free. I have worked on construction sites with union workers, some of which were very competent in their jobs, some were lazy s.o.b.s. For any contracted labor paid for by tax dollars, the best available, least expensive company should be awarded the job, not only union shops or prevailing wages. When my school tax dollars are paying over-priced union thugs (not the workers but the union mafia), I object.

Free Enterprise still is the best system, too bad we are no longer a free enterprise zone. I was self-employed for the best part of my working career, and I negotiated my own contracts with customers and businesses. Anyone is able to do the same, but most are too lazy, or never considered they had the ability to negotiate.

If workers wish to join unions for collective bargaining units, I say “great”, but it should not be a requirement forced on everyone that wants a job at that company on in that state.

#38

I think in this case he’s less a hack than an apostate

#39
Ric Golding said:
[i][b][/i][/b] Suck it up, enjoy life and enjoy the fact we can openly debate this stuff in a relatively "Civil" manner. This may be a shock to some of you, but arguments here on LSC are not being monitored by our government and swaying the way policies are decided. Then again, maybe they are. ;-)
They're not???? Then WTF is that black Suburban with tinted windows and 25 antennas doing parked in front of my house ?????
#40
Jon Radder said:
Ric Golding said:
[i][b][/i][/b] Suck it up, enjoy life and enjoy the fact we can openly debate this stuff in a relatively "Civil" manner. This may be a shock to some of you, but arguments here on LSC are not being monitored by our government and swaying the way policies are decided. Then again, maybe they are. ;-)
They're not???? Then WTF is that black Suburban with tinted windows and 25 antennas doing parked in front of my house ?????
We do seem to have an unusualy large amount of "guests" lately. I was on at 5:00am eastern one morning, the only member and had about 12-15 guests. I doubt they want our advice. Probably making up the guest list for the internment camps :lol: Ralph