Large Scale Central

Corrugated Roofing machine

Modeling
#1

I finally got my new lathe and Mill Trammed, and running. I’m new to the mill work as I played with a friends mill 40 years ago, and have limited amount of serious lathe work under my belt.

So all is new to me, but it comes back in a rare flash of brilliance.

So first project to learn with will be a machine to make correct scale corrugated tin roof panels. I will need a ton of them for the mining district. Spent a bit sketching out the basic design to work from, I sent the rough sketch to my brother to do a CAD drawing and clean up things and dimensions.

If you have any suggestions to prevent a catastrophe let me know.

#2

Dave

Very interesting the way you are doing this. I’ve never thought turning the dies on the lathe. This is on my “to make” list. My hang up as been making gear racks like the way Yogi made his, but with the rounded contours on the racks. If it were me, I would make it all out of alum with bronze bushing for the dies. Are going to gear the dies together?? I might have to start building mine soon.

Oh yea if you have any questions about machining, let me know and I’ll try to help.

Rodney

#3

Dave,

The problem you are likely to have with your design is that the material will ‘rip’ because once the material starts into the rollers, it has to 'move toward the center and the corrugations on the sides will not allow it to do so. Corrugated material of any variety is made is a rolling mill having several sets of rollers staged along the rolling line to allow the material to move as it needs to.

That is the ‘glory’ of Yogi’s design - it is self adjusting. As for real prototypical dimensions, all of the methods I have seen are far too ‘deep’ in cross section to be prototypical.

Your tool might be a good exercise in machining, but I am not real confident it will function as you intend. I did a quick search on ‘corrugated metal roll forming’ and found several items that might be of interest.

Bob C

#4

Thanks, Bob

That would of been a wast of time, so it back to the gear rack idea. I guess I can make a convex and concave cutter on the lathe out of A1 tool steel to use to cut the racks.

Rodney

#5

Instead of a roller, what about a press with positive and negative faces?

#6

Why not just make the rollers with the ridges lateral to the direction of rolling (like the Fiskers hand crimper) instead of longitudinal?

#7

You can buy aluminum shim stock in rolls that are 6" wide. Any gauge you need.
Keep that in mind for your feed in right from a coil.
Also, a shear like a guillotine paper cutter (a good one–not a plastic cheapy) would work for sizing once the stock is formed.

I think the forming dies should be along the length of the roller, not around the die like your drawing shows.
Just my opinion.

#8

I used the Fiscar’s crimper to make my aluminum panels. That design works. Maybe you could design yours with rollers that have shallower peaks and valleys, and maybe with the peaks and valleys closer together, for a more to scale look.
(http://largescalecentral.com/public/album_photo/fa/ba/01/1b841_3c41.JPG)

(http://largescalecentral.com/public/album_photo/f8/ba/01/1b83f_b56c.JPG)

#9

Yogi’s mega-crimper was made from gear stock, in pillow blocks, and a big crank. If I had a lathe, Id make one like that. He said the hardest part was getting the gears square to each other.

#10

Wow, what a response. Thanks for the ideas. A couple of points. The crimpers have way out of size corrugations, which is why I want to try and make one that gets closer to prototype size. Typical panels have a wave pattern of 3" crest to crest. And only about 2" deep. Scale that down to 1:20.3 and the ridges are about 3 mm apart and only 2 mm deep. I have found both 28gage Alum, and galv. stock. I’m counting on the fact that that isn’t much stretch or pull for soft 28gage alum.

Running the panels the short side thru I think would impart a curl to the panel that would be a hassle to deal with. And making dies with horizontal patterns is way over my head and beginner milling ability, and would have to have gears to keep them in sync. It might not work, but failures are a large source of knowledge.

I was not planing to gear drive the rollers, as that add a whole level of complexity, and is beyond my level of expertise at this time. I hope with the soft Alum. there will be enough friction to drive it thru.

BTW all out of 3/8 thick 6016 alum. with roller bearings.

Thanks for the in-put. I’ll post as I go.

#11

@John C. - Plate presses have similar issues to the design Dave is proposing. As the metal forms in the valleys of the die it begins to lock the position in each valley and for the metal to continue to form it must stretch to create the shape. Considering aluminum can stock is typically around .006 there isn’t much material to stretch. Combine that with the work hardened condition of aluminum can stock and somewhere the material will fail.

@John B - You are correct that a good guillotine paper cutter is an asset, but I would prefer to experiment with the width of the sheet until I got the finished width I was looking for. Cutting to size after forming requires a second pass through the crimper to repair the damage done during the sizing step. I hadn’t thought of aluminum shim stock, but would suggest making sure it is in non annealed condition when purchased. Any suggestions where you got yours?

@David M - Sweet little shanty, looks great. The issue with the Fiskars is the depth of the corrugation vs the pitch. I can’t find my catalog with dimensions so I am going from memory but real world corrugated metal is usually something in the 7/8 to 1 1/4 high range with the pitch of the corrugations something in the 2 -3 inch range. I haven’t measured mine to determine the scaled dimensions, but it doesn’t take calibrated eyeballs to see the excessive depth the Fiskars produces. Does it really matter? The overall effect the Fiskars produces is probably more visually appealing in that should one actually make scale corrugated the corrugations would get visually lost at ten feet.

@Bob - I have a copy of Yogi’s design and you would need both a lathe and mill to properly produce his machine. From memory the only part that requires a lathe is the modified gear for the handle to attach to. The bearing cuts should be done on a mill and bolt assembly holes would be either the mill or a drill press. If any of the assembly holes were counter sunk or counter bored (can’t remember) then the mill would be the way to go. Without some gear specific tools, yes the indexing would be a bit on the difficult side.

I have read a bunch of threads on this subject would only comment that from my experimenting with my Fiskars, I would recommend annealing the aluminum can stock prior to use. Drawing the aluminum in the forming process of the can work hardens it making it much harder to form with the Fiskars. Some have reported multiple passes through the crimper does the trick. I look at the construction of the crimper and feel that the plastic housing will fail over time overworking it with non annealed material. John B suggest another source, if you wish to buy your material, of aluminum shim stock. I hadn’t thought of that, but would suggest making sure it is in non annealed condition when purchased.

@Dave T - You beat my post :slight_smile:

#12

"Running the panels the short side thru I think would impart a curl to the panel that would be a hassle to deal with. "

The curl is not really a problem. I understand what you are saying, but I agree that running the groves around the rollers would either require the stock to move in at the ends, stretch to become ridges and valleys, or tear.

Thanks Bob, and I agree that scale corrugations may be visually lost at a distance. That is why scale siding material (in the smaller scales) tends to have exaggerated features. I used “embossing aluminum” purchased from the craft store. Its not work hardened and its easy to form. Using a soft aluminum like that, and working slow, I don’t think I will break my paper crimper. I did make sure and get the one with the aluminum crimp rollers.

#13

Dave M - That is what I was talking about, soft (annealed) will put far less wear on the crimper. I will have to look for embossing aluminum at Michaels and Hobby Lobby next time I am there.

#14

My brother finely sent me this.

I have the 3/8 Alum bar stock. I think that it’s time to get started.

BTW I found at Home Depot some Alum. Dryer vent tubes. They (when rolled) make 4" x 24" tubes. Rather soft and plyable, I miked it out to .008 so it’s 31 gage. Under $3 for a 12 x24 in sheet. As of now thats what I will use.

The grooves in the roller for the crests are to be .150 apart and need to be only .035 deep per roller.

Time to cut some metal.

#15

You can get shim stock at Amazon. And McMaster Carr, but Amazon is cheaper for the exact same brand.

Any thickness. As far as annealed, I don’t know. It works good enough for me. As to curling, it’s better to have it curl from the sides, (with the groves), than the ends. All you do is hand bend it back to flat.

If you sheared it along the groves, instead of across, I don’t know whether it would need re forming or not. I’d have to try it.

Example:http://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Stock-Temper-0-006-Length/dp/B005I59GWA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1388603754&sr=8-1&keywords=006+aluminum+shim+stock

#16

@John, I would think that the Temper of shim stock would make it rather hard to form and or bend to get the corrugation. Or am I thinking wrong and it would make it easier?

#17

For those enquiring minds on beverage can material. According to this thread:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/38043/Aluminum-Pop-Cans

the body of the can that we would be using for our corrugated siding will be either 3004 or 3104 aluminum. The drawing process work hardens the material giving it a portion of it’s strength as such a thin cross section. In order to make the can stock easier to run through our crimper, I strongly recommend annealing the material. The annealing temperature for 3004 according to this document

http://www.cad.sun.ac.za/catalogs/Aluminium/AluminiumEngineering_Handbook_AlumCity.pdf

is 306 degrees C or 680 degrees F. The annealing temperature for 3104 according to this document:

http://zxly.en.alibaba.com/product/554156396-213451130/3104_color_aluminum_coil_for_beverage_cans.html

is 415 degrees C or 780 degrees F. I know my household oven will not under normal circumstances reach that temperature, but in self clean mode (according to an appliance repair person I know) can reach upwards of 1,000 degrees. I found an old electric self clean oven on the curb where the electronics went bad. I hard wired the elements, now I need to find a means to monitor temperature.

@Dave T - Nice drawing. What software did your bro use?

@John B - Thanks for the info.

#18

Doing a quick search at McMaster-Carr, all the shim stock listed is no less than 1/2 hard. Most are full hard. This means it is tempered and should be annealed if you plan to use the crimper from Fiskars.

#19

@Bob C. TurboCAD Mac. My Bro and I both have it.

Could you explain the annealing process to us laymen. I think that it constutitues re-heating to a certain temp and then being allowed to cool down at a slow controlled rate to ambient temp.

My wife has a pottery kiln, with electronic temp and time controls, could that be used for the process? Could you mix the two can types, and heat only to the higher temp? Or would that ruin the other ( lower temp ) can? How would you tell the difference between the two types?

#20

For what little it’s worth, I’ve been using the half-hard brass shim stock from McMaster-Carr. I’ve used both .001" and .002" thicknesses. Both can be crimped using a Fiskar crimper, without annealing, but I usually anneal it anyway. I do this by heating it red-hot with a plumber’s torch. Kind of slow but gets the job done.

I’m still trying to come up with a good way to produce scale corrugations. The oversized corrugations from the Fiskar crimper are passable on a roof, but I really dislike the way they look on the side of a building, with scale windows and doors.