Large Scale Central

common wire - dangers?

today i had a disturbing thought.

i am slowly wiring my layout (DC trad.)

because i plan to run eight trains (16 motors) simultainously, i divided the layout into 9 blocks.

following the LGB system i got blue and red wires for the DC feed of the track.

the red feeds are individual for each block from individual transformers, with isolated gaps between blocks.

the blue rail is not interrupted, and the blue wires from the transformers i am connecting all together.

today i imagined, what happens, when a train passes from one block to the next.

locos and tenders have three pickups each. as these pass over the gap, the two circuits of the two involved transformers will get “mixed up” six times.

does that damage anything? if yes, what does it damage?

Get a Zimo system and have no blocks…20 amps!!

Here we go again (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)

I no longer run track power in blocks, but I did for a long time. I used only one power supply so my results may not be relevant.

Let me be sure I understand your situation. Lets imagine you have a straight piece of track divided into three common rail blocks. Are you using three power packs with three throttles to move a train from one end to the other? If so, just setting the throttles so train speed will be consistent across the blocks could be difficult, say nothing of what is going on with the power packs as a multi-pickup loco or car crosses the gap. Diode isolation might help, but would probably require trains always run the same direction.

I set up all of my blocks using a single common power supply. Of course this did not allow for any independent operation of the blocks, but gave me no issues at all crossing block boundaries Except in reverse loops. In the reverse loop case, I needed to stop for direction change and could not drag any lit or powered cars across the gap leading into the reverse block or it would short.

The systems I recall seeing being used for independent control had CAB switches. Each power pack is considered a CAB. You can then select which CAB is powering a BLOCK and so long as adjoining blocks are set to the same CAB there is no issue crossing the boundary. Once the train is fully inside a block and stopped, the CAB can be changed to allow independent operation.

There are lots of books out there on DC wiring for CAB/BLOCK control. Google might get you some excerpts for free.

The question is “when trains pass between blocks, the 2 supplies are temporarily put in parallel”, is this a problem?

Well, if they are in the same polarity no issue, although you would want the voltages matched reasonably well but no issue.

If they are not the same polarity you have an issue, you are creating a short circuit between the power supplies. not good.

Personally, I would not connect the blue wires together, but it really makes no difference, the short can only occur when you have both leads from a transformer connected to another with reverse polarity.

Greg

p.s. is each block isolated on both rails, or just one rail?

Greg Elmassian said:

The question is “when trains pass between blocks, the 2 supplies are temporarily put in parallel”, is this a problem?

Well, if they are in the same polarity no issue, although you would want the voltages matched reasonably well but no issue.

If they are not the same polarity you have an issue, you are creating a short circuit between the power supplies. not good.

Personally, I would not connect the blue wires together, but it really makes no difference, the short can only occur when you have both leads from a transformer connected to another with reverse polarity.

Greg

p.s. is each block isolated on both rails, or just one rail?

OK Greg. Where did this quote come from? “when trains pass between blocks, the 2 supplies are temporarily put in parallel”, is this a problem? I don’t see that text anywhere in Korm’s post, so you again make assumptions and state them as fact.

Why do you have a problem with Common Rail? This has been an accepted practice in DC powered layouts since before you were born.

And if you read Korms post carefully he states the answer to your question “is each block isolated on both rails, or just one rail?” Common rail only isolates ONE rail at block boundaries.

Greg is correct that the supplies will be connected in parallel when the front axle of a motor block is in one track block and the rear is still in another. It seems to me like an important condition to consider.

I’ll tell you what happens, because mine is wired with a common rail and includes three Train Engineers (each run on a Meanwell 24 volt, 12.5 amp power), plus 1/2 wave d/c for the 21 turnouts, plus a/c for the accessories and sounds, plus separate a/c for the lighting. This all runs through the common rail without issue!

When crossing blocks, if the blocks are situated with the two power supplies oriented with the same polarity, the trains will run at the speed of the higher voltage…, not a combined voltage.

If the blocks are situated with the two power supplies oriented with opposite polarity, the trains would appear to slow to the difference in voltage when crossing the gap (e.g., +18 & -12 = +6), and they do a “cha cha” back and forth between the two blocks. I’ve seen this happen maybe half a dozen times in over 20 years and it has never resulted in any damage nor even tripped the breakers.

Dan,
thanks, but no thanks.

Gary,
we are still missing the counsel to try battery… (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif)

Jon and Greg,
thank you both so far.
i’ll try to give more specific info.

the whole thing shall run without me having to do anything while observing my trains.
it is a long circle, with six passing sidings plus two endstations.
on half of the locos the polarity is changed at the cables, that feed the motors.

the green marks indicate, where the blocks are interrupted/islated.
because i have to reverse polarity at and between the two end-stations, but not on the rest of the layout, the block containig these two stations is separated on both rails from the rest of the layout. the rest of the interruptions is on one (red) rail only.
each station has on both sidings two foot long pieces of track, that shall be activated by other trains. (the train on the longest track between two stations shall activate all the others one after the other)
i am still testing, if i will use reeds, or Toddalin’s “BUMPASS” system.

because of my third world income and the first world prices for things like transformers and throttles i looked for alternatives.
i have one AC pack 25V 4 Amp. that should do the maximal two simultanious actions required.
and i have three LGB and Fleischmann transformer/throttle packs, that can move one to two trains on level ground. (plus some weaker packs, that i do not want to use for this)
but i have a whole bunch of old PC-power packs.
tests show, that at 10 to 12 volt most of them move up to half a dozen Stainzes.

so i planned to use these. speed differences and slow-downs at stations can be made with diodes where i feed the rails.

so far everything is tested, but not permanently implemented on the whole layout.

Jon, Greg’s quote could be a result of good memory. about seven years ago i pesterd the guys on mls with questions, how to wire and steer the two head stations.

Greg, do i understand correctly, that you say, that the time, the six pickups need to cross the gap at slow speed, the joining of two circuits, that are wired for the same polarity and have no more difference than 1 volt, will neither fry my motors, nor the powerpacks?

The same polarity should be no issue, a large difference might be disturbing, but I agree with Todd (not only because he is right!), that the higher voltage will prevail (caveat, that the higher voltage supply is equal to or greater in amperage capacity, and the loco is not trying to draw max amps)… (just being finicky)…

I think you are saying the 2 blocks at the “ends” have isolation on 2 rails, but the rest only have isolation on a single rail. It should work, since you are using different power packs. That scheme would not work if you were using a single supply.

I’d also have take Todd’s experience with the adjacent blocks with reverse polarity. While the potential for a nasty short circuit exists and double voltage to the loco, with multiple pickups on a loco it probably won’t happen, or it happens for such a short time it does not hurt anything. Would not be so comfortable if there were decoders in the locos.

Greg

Thanks!

the “ends” need to be separated from the rest.

on the rest of the layout three normal and three reverted locos/trains will drive in both directions, but all with the same unchanging polarity.

but trains (of both kinds) that leave the main layout into that blockwith “normal” polarity, then have to back up (reversed) to the other “end” station, before leaving the section with normal polarity again.

so, even with my limited knowledge of sparks, i’m pretty sure, to separate that completly.

decoders - some of the newer stainzes have sound, so i supose, that they must have some kind of electronics inside.

“The whole thing shall run without me having to do anything while observing my trains.”

“But trains (of both kinds) that leave the main layout into that blockwith “normal” polarity, then have to back up (reversed) to the other “end” station, before leaving the section with normal polarity again.”

Mutually exclusive unless you have really large diameter curves and/or run really small trains (the turn-out will kill you). You would be better off completing the curve around and avoid the automated (or even manual) backing of trains.

Todd,

Mutually exclusive? - a person, who’s knowledge i highly respect, teached me otherwise. http://forums.mylargescale.com/38-traditional-power/18611-wiring-council-needed.html

even if that is some time in the past, (due to my building speed) for me nothing has changed since then.

save how i will couple the cars together. the problems i had/have with reversing and uncoupling at grade-transitions get tackled with:

long one-piece drawbars, body mounted very near the trucks for the four-axle cars. (side effect: shorter coupling)

a diagonal connection of the trucks from the LGB two axle cars.

this reversing curve is the sharpest on the layout. (R1)

the trains will be maximal loco (Stainz) plus power-tender with five foot worth of cars behind. (either five LGB one-footers, or four 1’ 3" newqida bashes, or combinations of that.)

at the moment (the last two years or so) in fact i have a temporal curve laid there, instead of the two “back-up stations”.

that makes it easier to control how function my ongoing installations on the main part of the layout.

Wow, that was 7 years ago!

Since I gave up on MLS, perhaps “bringing” some of those pictures over here would be helpful?

Greg

(I retired at 20,000 posts, that was enough)

Korm Kormsen said:

Todd,

Mutually exclusive? - a person, who’s knowledge i highly respect, teached me otherwise. http://forums.mylargescale.com/38-traditional-power/18611-wiring-council-needed.html (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

even if that is some time in the past, (due to my building speed) for me nothing has changed since then.

save how i will couple the cars together. the problems i had/have with reversing and uncoupling at grade-transitions get tackled with:

long one-piece drawbars, body mounted very near the trucks for the four-axle cars. (side effect: shorter coupling)

adiagonal connection of the trucks from the LGB two axle cars.

this reversing curve is the sharpest on the layout. (R1)

the trains will be maximal loco (Stainz) plus power-tender with five foot worth of cars behind. (either five LGB one-footers, or four 1’ 3" newqida bashes, or combinations of that.)

at the moment (the last two years or so) in fact i have a temporal curve laid there, instead of the two “back-up stations”.

that makes it easier to control how function my ongoing installations on the main part of the layout.

Mutually exclusive, not in the wiring, but in that you may need to continually be dealing with derailments. But it sounds like you have it figured out.

But a word to the wise. Set up this scenario and manually run the trains through it numerous times and see if it results in derailment before you settle on it.

A properly implemented layout outdoors can run trains backwards, that’s actually a test I run.

This is indoors in a much more controlled environment with short trains and all LGB (nice deep flanges).

I would give this a good chance of success.

Greg

Greg Elmassian said:

A properly implemented layout outdoors can run trains backwards, that’s actually a test I run.

This is indoors in a much more controlled environment with short trains and all LGB (nice deep flanges).

I would give this a good chance of success.

Greg

On a 1 to 10 scale ratio what chances do you think Korm has ?

well, Rooster, i would give it an 8…

Todd,

Set up this scenario and manually run the trains through it numerous times and see if it results in derailment before you settle on it.

that is, what i’m doing step by step (station by station) with the wiring of the main part of the layout now.

Greg,

I retired at 20,000 posts,

well, if things continue as they are, most everybody from there will be here shortly…

and, i’ll take up your request, and give (somewhat shortened) reprint of that thread.

here we go:

short version:

i knew, what i wanted, and Todd found out, how i could do it.

what i wanted:

build a harbor, where trains stop on the piers and integrate that into the automated layout.

i made a plan in MSpaint to show the situation.

let us pretend, that two trains (one normal, one reversed) are in the northern station.
i already coloured the rails after the polarity needed.

to show better, what it meant, this:

the right hand, outer semicircle represents the rest of the layout

(since when i made this pic, there were added two more stations, but that does not change anything for the harbor section)

step one:

one train leaves north-station, going into the main loop:

step two.

the other train reverses to south-station:

step three:

a train comes from the main loop into south-station:

the train, that had backed up into south-station leaves for the main loop:

the remaining train backs from south-station up into north-station:

a train from the main loop heads for north-station:
(note - the polarity as shown in the pic has to be changed, before the train enters the station)

with that, the sequence begins to repeat itself:

well, i was enchanted by my own idea, but could not come up with a solution, how to realize it.

in about an hour i will post a short version of with what Todd came up with a little “help” (missunderstanding) from me.

well, Todd first broke up the problem in manageable pieces, like:

trains will always face the same ways on the end sidings so that the postion of the engine and reed switches need not change from one end to the other (simplifies things a bit)

using one EPL on each turnout and only throwing two turnouts at a time per reed switch with six reed switches.

then we had some back and forth communication like this:

(the > marks Todd’s lines)

I will only place reed switches on the four pier sidings, one on the top siding, one on the bottom siding, and two on each of the interior sidings, so train length won’t be a problem here. There are no reed switches along the “by-pass” siding.<

that did not occur to me.

Also the by-pass siding will not be double insulated (or insulated at all) from the four pier sidings, and everything left of the two mainline turnouts will undergo simultaneous polarity changes.<

once you mention it, it sounds logical.

In fact, the entire left side need not be insulated from the mainline at all so long as trains remain parked on the mainline (and its sidings) when operations along the by-pass siding occur (but we’ll insulate it anyways).<

yes, because as i see it, there will be trains still moving on the mainline, while a train at the harbor will begin to back up.

Each of the two “pier turnouts” will use one side of the 030 dpdt to route power to that siding when the turnout is thrown that direction. One of the two by-pass turnouts will be wired with the 030 as a dpdt reversing switch such that when the by-pass is selected the current to the left side of the railroad is reversed …<

yes, understood.

The heart of the system is in the the EPL on the other by-pass turnout that will be used to route the current from the reed switches so that they are not activated at the wrong times. …<

do i understand that right? you want to interrupt some cables between reed and turnoutmotor at times?

Yes, I’m thinking that you may have to.

When the train pulls onto a pier siding it passes over the reed switch and “trips an action.” Later, when the train pulls out of that siding, you don’t necessarily want that action tripped again, but the engine magnet will still pass over the reed, so you need some way to ignore it. If the trains were to go in a loop, rather than back out, this would not be a concern because you would only pass over that reed one time and trip the appropriate action once.

This is the point where the wiring is giving me a headache and I needed to get away from it and work on the railroad, but I do believe that we can do it.

Maybe you can see where I’m going from here?<

i think, i begin to get an idea, what you are up to.


first solution by Todd:

Number the piers from 1 to 4 from north to south (P1, P2, P3, and P4).

Number the turnouts from 1 to 4 going clockwise and starting at the northwestern turnout (T1, T2, T3, and T4). Each turnout has an 030 DPDT. Assume T2 is used as a reverser for the "left side" when it is thrown to the curved position. T3 will be used for reed switch routing.

The Piers are only “live” when the turnout points to them using 030s (single gapped) mounted on T1 and T4. Double gaps are used east of the siding turnouts.

Here we go.

Train pulls into P1 and trips a reed switch that throws T1 and T4 to the interior pier sidings (P2 and P3).

The train on P2 leaves clockwise to the main line and it, or another, eventually comes to P3.

P3 has two reed switches (your imposed limitation). As train nears the end of P3 the first reed it comes to throws T3 to the curve and T4 to the exterior position (P4). This cuts the power to P3 and throws the EPL that will be used to route the reed switches. The second reed switch throws T1 and T2 and the train sitting on P1 comes to life just as the current is reversed.

The train on P1 backs through the siding to P4. This trips a reed on P4 that throws T1 and T4 to their inner positions. This kills the train on P4 and brings the train sitting on P3 to life and it backs through the siding to P2.

When the train pulls on to P2 it passes two reeds. The first throws T3 to the straight and T1 to the exterior position (P1). This cuts the power to P2 and throws the EPL that will be used to route the reed switches. The second reed switch throws T4 to the straight and T2 re-reversing the current and the train sitting on P4 comes to life and heads back out to the main line.


that would be this, if i choose the right pic now:

but there were some preopucations left.

as set up, the harbor, with its two “stations” would set the pace for the whole layout. i didn’t think, that would work. because there are up to 80 foot of track between the other stations.
if the shortest distance (the small loop in the harbor) had set the pace, it would have caused havok on the other sections.

another possible problems could have been, that the trains going into P2 or P3 might come to rest exactly above the second reeds, thus frying them with their magnets.

i revised my plans, including all stations. (P1 and P2 together would be station3. P3 and P4 would be station 4)
the harbor, with its four piers is replacing two stations with passing sidings. so for the whole picture, P1 and 2 are station 3 and pier P3 and P4 are station 4.
the whole layout would know only three situations:

  1. two trains (of opposing polarity) in every odd numbered station.
  2. one train on every track-section between stations.
  3. two trains (of opposing polarity) in every even numbered station.
    (the section between stations 5 and 6 is the longest, therefore the trains on this section would have to trigger everything else.)

then Todd solved the riddle of the Sphynx.

The EPL on T3 that was to control the reed switches does not have enough contacts or positions to satisfy all possible scenarios. So, we are going to remove that EPL and just use the turnout as an electric turnout and it will not be routing power.

So, how do we get the reeds to ignore the magnets when necessary, and how can we keep a train from parking over a reed and causing its demise?

We need to add two more turnout motors connected to EPLs and four more reed switches. The reeds will be placed immediately west of the other reed switches (the one on P1 and P4 and the two on P2 and P3). We really want these switches as close together as possible and you should physically glue the two or three reed tubes together, rather than have them in seperate housings. This will ensure that all are tripped and lessen the possiblity of parking over them. (But that will no longer be an issue.)

The new reed switch on P1 and P4 will control an 010/030 and we only need to use one set of contacts of the EPL. The reed switch on P1 routes through one contact of the 030 and the reed switch on P4 routes through the other. The common contact actually allows the current to flow to trigger the turnouts. So when the train arrives at P1, the very last reed it encounters throws the 010/030 to the other side and the reed switch on P1 is cutoff until the train reaches P4 and triggers that reed, that cuts off the P4 reed off and brings the P1 reed back on line so that they always alternate.

We do the same thing for P2 and P3. But in this case, we use both sets of contacts on the 030. One set of contacts will cut off the first reed along the siding and the other set of contacts will cut off the second reed along the siding, turning the control over to the reeds on the complimentary pier as was done on P1 and P4.

Everything will still play out as I previously noted.

BTW, when the train leaves P1 eastbound around the mainline, it would not be the train that pulls into P4. That would be the last train in the sequence headed in that direction so it should not be that long a wait.

After that, he found Another Way to Skin a Cat

Just to show that there is always more than one way to do things, here is a completely different, cheaper, solution that solves the same problem and accomplishes the same movements. I’m sure that there are other ways this could also be done, but this one was keeping me up (note the time).

Number the piers from 1 to 4 from north to south (P1, P2, P3, and P4).

Number the turnouts from 1 to 4 going clockwise and starting at the northwestern turnout (T1, T2, T3, and T4). Assume T2 has an 030 and is used as a reverser for the “left side” when it is thrown to the curved position. Other than for the turnouts themselves, no other turnout motors or 030s are required.

P1 has a single gap in the northern rail where we want the engine to stop. There is a reed switch located just west of this gap that throws T2 and T3 to the straight (mainline setting). This sets the reverser in the "normal" mode.

P2 also has a gap in the northern rail where you want the engine to stop. But in this case, we will span the gap with a diode, just as if we are setting up a reversing unit’s end of track. There is a jumper wire that goes from this insulated section of track on P2 to the insulated section on P1 beyond its gap.

P2 has two reed switches placed just east of the diode. The westernmost (outer) reed switch throws T1 and T4 to the straight positions for the trains to enter P1 and P4. The easternmost (inner) reed throws T1 and T4 to curved positions for trains to enter P2 and P3.

P3 also has a gap in the northern rail with a diode where you want the engine to stop. But in this case, the diode faces in the other direction. There is a jumper wire that goes from this insulated section of track to the insulated section on P4 beyond its gap.

P3 also has two reed switches placed just east of the diode. The westernmost (outer) reed switch throws T1 and T4 to the straight positions for the trains to enter P1 and P4. The easternmost (inner) reed throws T1 and T4 to curved positions for trains to enter P2 and P3.

P4 has a single gap in the northern rail where we want the engine to stop. There is a reed switch located just west of this gap that throws T2 and T3 to the curved (bypass setting). This sets the reverser in the "reversed" mode.

Lets’ say that initially a train is sitting on P1 behind the gap at the ready

So here we go.

User toggles the turnout and train pulls into P2. As the train passes the first reed switch T1 and T4 are toggled to the inner positions (P2 and P3), then, as the train toggles the second reed it puts the turnouts to the outer (P1 and P4) positions. The engine then passes the diode and stops.

As the engine is passing the diode, its wheels span the gap and power can flow to the isolated section. This also sends power to the train sitting on P1 through the jumper wire. Because this train runs in the opposite direction it takes off eastbound by itself while toggling the reed setting T2 and T3 to the main line (where they already were in this case).

This train (or another) comes around and enters P4, because that’s how the turnouts were left from the train on P2. It crosses the gap and stops, AFTER it trips the reed. (More on this in a bit.) This throws T2 and T3 to the by-pass position and reverses the current to the left side.

Now the train that is sitting on P2 comes to life because current can flow through the diode. This train starts to back out and first encounters the western reed throwing the turnout to the outer position (P1 and P4), then to the eastern reed throwing the turnout to the inner (P2 and P3) position and the train backs around the bypass to P3.

On P3 it encounters the eastern reed throwing the turnouts to the inner position (P2 and P3) then the western reed throwing the turnouts to the outer (P1 and P4) positions then crossing the diode and stopping.

As the train is passing the diode, its wheels span the gap and power can flow to the isolated section. This also sends power to the train sitting on P4 through the jumper wire. Because this train runs in the opposite direction it takes off eastbound by itself while toggling the reed setting T2 and T3 to the bypass line (where they already were in this case).

The train pulls into P1 and passes the gap, stopping AFTER it trips the reed, while throwing T2 and T3 back to the mainline position and re-reversing (straightening???) the current.
(This is the part I left out last night.)

When the current is set back to the normal (non-reversed) position, current can now flow thought the diode on P3. The train sitting on P3 leaves going eastbound and and first encounters the the western reed throwing the turnouts to the outer position (P1 and P4), then to the easten reed throwing the turnouts to the inner (P2 and P3) position and the train heads out to the mainline because when the other train backed onto P1 from P4, it reset T2 and T3 to the mainline as it reset the current. This train (or another) then proceeds counterclockwise around the mainline and enters on P2, because thats where they were left when the train left P3.

With respect to the reeds in the isolated sections of P1 and P4. When the train came around the mainline from P1 to P4, the current was flowing in the “normal” direction. The diode on P3 allows curent to flow in that direction and the current makes its way to the isolated section of P4 through the jumper. When the train comes onto P4 and passes the gap, the rail beyond the gap is still alive through the jumper until the train trips the reed and this reverses the current. Once the current is reversed, it can no longer make its way through the diode so the train remains dead on P4 until something spans the diode or re-reverses the current.

The same situation occurs when the train uses the by-pass to go from P4 to P1. When this occurs, the current is in the reversed state. In this state it can pass through the diode on P2, follow the jumper and make its way to the isolated section on P1. This section then stays alive until the engine trips the reed the puts the current back to the normal state and no current will pass through the diode on P2, so the train remains dead until something spans the diode or reverses the current.

Benefits include fewer parts and trains always cross reeds under power (eliminating parking over reeds). Also, there is benefit in having the diode/jumper combination in that when a train comes into P1 or P4, it looses 0.7 volts through the diode, slowing a bit before crossing the reed and stopping. Also, when a train spans a diode to release the other train, for a moment, they share current, slowing the trains a bit during their simulaneous stop/start.

Another benefit is ease of wiring, The two western reeds always throw T1 and T4 to their outer settings and the two eastern reeds to their inner settings. So the western reeds can simply be wired in parallel as can the two eastern reeds. Furthermore, T1 and T4 always throw together, either inward or outward. So these two turnouts can be wired in parallel. Now you only need one diode for the two western reeds and one diode for the two eastern reeds.

Similarily T2 and T3 always work as a pair either throwing toward the mainline or the by-pass. So they can be wired in parallel. Now we only need one diode from the reed on P1 and one diode from the reed on P4.


i like this one!
after i put it to the plan, it looks really simple.

well, as it was Todd, who came up with brilliant ideas, here a quote from him at the end of the thread:

"Yes, I fancy this one too. It’s elegant in its simplicity (…)
But it has its caveats. For example, the diodes are sensitive to polarity so you need to be careful as to the placement of normal/reversed current engines. Also, if you use lighted cars, you may need to disconnect the first truck from the lighting circuit so that it doesn’t cross the gap and let current flow to the engine.

Finally, the engine leaving from P1 and P4 must make it past the gap while the engine on P2 or P3 “stradles” the diode. So, we want to put this reed as close to the gap as possible, but far enough for the longest engine to clear the siding before hitting the reed.

I don’t think it really gets any simpler (or cheaper) than this and I would dare anyone to try to do similar movements with anything shy of computer control. (Those R/C and DCC people can eat their hearts out.)

(Don’t forget the four diodes that route the turnout current.) "


another quote from a guy, who read that thread and made the last post:

"Hi Kormy…(http://www.mylargescale.com/Providers/HtmlEditorProviders/CEHtmlEditorProvider/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/face1.gif) DC is great isn’t it. "

seeing that comment, made me reflect about the “power-war”

it is easier to convert locos to battery, or set up DCC, than set up a complicated DC layout. yes.

but the time those guys save while preparing the layout, they spend while running trains.

and…

… the only way, i get burnt fingers is by dozing, while i hold a cigarette.

Boy, that Todd character sounds like one smart/creative fellow. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-innocent.gif)