Large Scale Central

Choosing a new loco

General Discussion
#1

Today is my birthday, and I was given some money to buy a new loco. So, I’m thinking either the Bachmann Annie or an Aristocraft Delton C-16.

I’ve seen the Annies in person and they’re great looking locos. I really like the fancy Walschearts (sp?) valve gear. It’s also a pretty good size – I don’t want any 1:20 stuff. On the other hand, I’m concerned about performance. I can’t afford to put one of Barry’s drives in it.

I like the looks of the C-16, and also the fact that it’s not as common around here as the Big Hauler. But I haven’t seen one in person, and wonder if it might be lacking in detail.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Are there any other locos I should be considering?

#2

It really depends on how hard you are going to run it. The Annie is for the most part a good runner. I’ve had two in light use for about 4 years. It’s a good size loco if you want a narrow gauge look in 1:22 and is quite true to the extant ET&WNC prototype still running at Tweetsie RR.

I haven’t heard any reviews on the new C-16 drive yet, but it looks like it shout be a solid system and will probably outlast a Bachman drive over time, especially if you do a lot of continuous running. The C-16 is quite small, being a 1:24 model of a small loco. The current version is more true to the prototype with lowered frame and open space between the chassis and the boiler.

I have an old version C-16 that I rarely run. The drive is noisy and it’s just too small to fit with most of my other stuff. Someday I might up size the cab and details to make a small industrial engine out of it in 1:20.

Personally, I’d get the Annie. At a regular street price around $125 you could get two and run them less. Looks like the street price on the C-16 (when available) will be about $425 at RRS. They have the Annie listed at $170 which seems high., but I haven’t shopped for one in several years.

#3

The C-16 is Tiny in my eyes-cute, but tiny!..and I do like my Annies…I have a Christmas Version that I might be talked into selling/trading…I’ve converted one of mine…They are a good running loco!
Happy Birthday!
cale

#4

The Annie is a good runner, especially the newer ones, although I find the low speed performance a little annoying–they just stop–and the pilot truck is notoriously bad. I have one that I kitbashed into an 0-6-0 and one in bumblee yellow. Everybody likes the bumblebee but me. I think it looks both too big and not big enough. But the two I have–both of which I’ve stripped down to the gears and re-assembled–have a lot of great detail and are much more robust than the old Big Haulers. I’m surprised how well both of them pull.

I’ve ever run the C-16 but it is small. It’s very nice looking and the plug and play is, in my opinion and I know this could be trouble, a nice feature

#5

Ray;

Shoulda mentioned, you can almost get 2 Annies for the price of one C-16…

Mike, I’ve not experienced the slow characteristics you mention with mine, under battery power?

#6

I would recommend the ANNIE as my first choice. I have two and they have had very little problems. I bought one for $99 and the other for $115 about a year ago. I think you can find them for $125 at Trainworld. Bachmann also has at least one christmas set with the ANNIE engine in it that you might get at a good after Christmas sale price.

Big John

#7

Ray trainworld has Bachmann 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 s for $225 on sale. I have two bachmann anniversary models of the bumble bee and the d&rg southern, and a tweetsie. they are around $170 at trainworld also. They have the metal drive mechanism which is better than the cheepy sets. I’m looking at one of the above for myself mogul or consolitdated one. The Regal

#8

I’m kind of leaning towards the Annie – I’m seduced by that fancy valve gear. :slight_smile: But, how can I tell if I’m getting the latest version, and not “new old stock”? Also, which ones have the fancy gear and which ones don’t?

#9

If it has metal siderods and valve gear, that is the most current version , I’d say given the size of your layout, go for the Annie, and get a Bubblebee to boot, they look great outdoors !

You’ll probably have to call whoever your planning to buy it from and specificly request a model with the metal siderods unless you can go to a store and get it and visually confirm it there, shame SanVal is gone, he always had a few in stock.

#10

Ray,
I would think that any Anniversary available today would be new old stock. They were being flogged off around 12 months ago for approx. $125.00, but honestly of late there seems to be none on offer new from an online (eBay) dealer. Ridge Road has had their $170.00 price for a long time. I really do not think that any newly manufactured Anniversaries have been made for some time. Ray at ‘thefavoritespot’ regularly breaks up White Pass sets, but these Anniversary locomotives only have the simplified metal valve gear. Expect to pay around $120. These come from sets but do have Anniversary detailing but not the favoured tricky valve gear.

  The fancy valve gear is nice,  but is only really prototypical for the ET&WNC version and it has a tendency to be unreliable,  as mount screws regularly loosen and the gear will self destruct.  All other roadnames are simple fantasy.  My preference would be the Aristo C-16.  This is a smallish 1/24 scale but well detailed and beautifully painted.  I am none too keen on the tooth belt drive,  but apparently the belts do not wear out.  I have twelve of the 'old' drive models and have found them to be very reliable.  A new 'old' (pre-tooth belt drive) model can be had for around $125 - $140 on eBay and far better value than both an Anniversary ($170.00) or a late model C-16 ($250 - $275).
#11
C. Nelson said:
Mike, I've not experienced the slow characteristics you mention with mine, under battery power?
I don't think it's a track vs battery thing, I think--though I might be wrong--it's the number of poles in the motor. It's kind of hard to describe. The annie will run well slowly starting out, but if I go to a good operating speed and then slow down it tends to jerk to a sudden halt as the speed gets slow. None of the other engines that we run do this. It's not a huge deal but it's very noticeable backing up to a string of cars

Another thing to consider with the annie is that it’s a real pain to break down and reassemble. At least it is for me. I’d probably go for the C-16

#12

Mike.

Sorry to say from our experience it really is a track powered thing.
The wheels are pretty crappy cast metal and get grotty very quickly. That makes them a bit hesitant at low speed unless kept scrupulously clean.

Battery power goes direct into the motor so low speed performance is enhanced somewhat.
DCC tends to pick up better because of the relatively high voltage on the track compared to regular DC.

#13

All this talk of the Annie having wheels that unfailingly attract crud, and falling off the track at the slightest opportunity, are totally at variance with my experience. Some have had near-maddeninging problems keeping the pilot on the track - I never have. It just stays there all the time. The complex and realistic valve-gear of my WP version has never shown any signs of self-destruction - even partial.

All the bits are as stubbornly hanging together now as they were when I bought it almost ten years ago. Since that time it has been to countless displays, demo-days and track days, running up to eight of nine hours daily on occasions, without anything more than a gentle lube to make things a mite easier as the day wears on.

It is running around on my little track-powered line right now just to prove a point - it has been snowing overnight here, and it’s still -2C, and the loco is beebling around quite happily with five Bachmann J&S cars behind it, its usual consist, emitting the usual cheap-sounding and slighty modulated hiss from its basic sound system - one, incidentally, that has my grandaughter totally entranced.

My initial response to the complaints about this loco - faultless in service here, is to

a. clean the track more often.

b. clean the wheels more often.

c. stop using it to batter down walls, and treat it kindly.

It’s only a little engine.

tac

#14

Its a tough decision. I like the looks of the annies but I just dont trust them out of the box unless you do the fix-ups yourself. (Something I am not good with) I just think I hear of too many problems plus they are a bit fragile for me. Some have had great luck but I would also image they have been redone. Making them the great runners. Have you thought about Hartland. They are great locos and the big john might look great on your RR expecially after a nice paint job. Whatever route you go they all will look great on on your RR.

#15
TonyWalsham said:
Mike.

Sorry to say from our experience it really is a track powered thing.
The wheels are pretty crappy cast metal and get grotty very quickly. That makes them a bit hesitant at low speed unless kept scrupulously clean.

Battery power goes direct into the motor so low speed performance is enhanced somewhat.
DCC tends to pick up better because of the relatively high voltage on the track compared to regular DC.


Well I’m going to disagree. I notice the same thing right after I clean the wheels. I notice it when I ran it right out of the box–I took a brand new, unrun annie, put it right on the track on my test bench, and it did exactly what I described. I have both my annies rigged to pick up power from all eight wheels of the tenders, and I’m running at a constant 21 volts, using remotes, so I’m confident it’s not power pickup or wheel dirt that’s at issue. Outside, I have an LGB starter set loco, and two aristo steamers, and a USAT 44 tonner that run completely differently–they each come to a smoother, more gradual stops. The Annies act the same way on my layout regardless of were they are–on stainless track, on brass track. I don’t see how else to explain it. Now maybe I got a couple from a run with different motors? That’s possible, I suppose.

But I should add I like the Annie and think it’s the best bargain in large scale. Mine runs very well except–showing very little sensitivity to dirty for this one small issue I’ve reported here and the funky pilot. I like the proportions of the C-16 a bit more

#16

Ran my Annie on track power for a long time before converting it irrevocably to battery. Like it a lot.

#17

Dear Ray,

Have you seen my new Annies in the For Sale/Trade section? (Simple valve gear.)

Sincerely,

Joe

#18

I have built more than twenty Anniversary based Bachmann ‘bashes’ from 0-6-0 switchers, 4-4-0, 2-8-0, 4-6-2 to 4-8-0, 4-8-2 and a 4-4-4-0. These were all built from either newly purchased locomotives or from new spare parts. In every case the locomotives have been fitted with supplemental tender wheel pickups to aid power pickup reliability. I have never had a pilot truck derailment (except one case, from the factory, whereby the pilot wheelsets were hopelessly undergauge and derailed on a frog). All locomotives have performed faultlessly after rebuilding, but then I am very particular how I assemble my locomotives.

Unlike Terry, I and many on the Bachmann forum, have had valve gear problems, with the valve gear simply disassembling itself in operation. When rebuilding my bashes I bond the offending mount screws and have so far not had a problem after rebuilding. I have yet to receive an Anniversary that did not have QC issues. It is mainly problems associated with numerous parts liberating themselves in the original factory package on arrival. However, cabs broken in transit and domes loose in the packaging are not uncommon. I had one case whereby the locomotive simply would not run and actually shorted out my power unit. I disassembled and found the tender light wiring, in the locomotive, pinched under the cast weight block so that exposed/cut wires were shorting out through the metal ballast weight. I always dispose of the smoke unit so cannot comment on its reliability. The loco is a good basis to rebuild to something more reliable. With over twenty Anniversary purchases, I believe that I am competent to comment on factory build quality.

The Aristo-Craft C-16 (non tooth belt drive) fares little better in so far as potential problems and also suffers from occasional QC lapses plus transit/delivery issues, such as split boilers (I have received two with boilers cracked completely through the moulding. I reported the problem and apparently I am the only purchaser ever to receive a locomotive with a cracked boiler and yet I received two such locomotives). Other problems are domes separating from the boiler, detail parts falling/breaking off and cabs either broken away from their bases or decorative cab sidepanels distorted/separated from the cab. Notorious on the damage on arrival list are the fragile side running boards on the boiler. The mounts are too fragile and break through at the front edge. The tender has power pickups, but the roughly cast standard tender wheels are not reliable conductors. I have twelve C-16 and have seen many QC/delivery problems. Mechanical reliability has not been an issue with me, but many have had noisy, unreliable drives, with in many cases, the axle shaft gear that meshes with the motor ‘pinion’ gear, spinning loosely on its shaft. The new tooth belt drive dispenses with this gear train and also uses ‘prime mover’ gearboxes and thus far does not seem to have any reported running issues, apart from numerous comments on the reliability of the smoke unit. On my locomotives smoke is not an issue and I remove the unit. Apart from QC issues, the loco is a favourite of mine and I feel that I have enough of them to comment on reliability/performance.

I would purchase an Anniversary if I was going to rebuild/bash it, or an Aristo if I wanted a loco to run straight out of the box. As suggested earlier, my recommendation is a superceded non tooth belt drive Aristo C-16 available new online on eBay for around $120. The newly released tooth belt drive chassis has caused demand for the older new old stock models to decline, with resultant lower purchase prices. Prior to the release, these were selling anywhere from $150 upwards, with the relatively rare bumble bee, attracting prices generally over $200. The newly released model is good value at around $250.00. The newly released model is better finished/better paint schemes and has the drive lowered back to its prototypical height. When Aristo retooled the original Delton drive, post 2000, they raised the drive by 0.250", giving the loco an unusual stance. The newly released drive addressed this issue and the axles are now back at a prototypical height in relation to the cylinders, giving a more realistic look to the model.

#19

Much as I just hate to admit it, I guess that I’m just downright unlucky when it comes to Bachmann large-scale products. Y’see, it happens that every Bachmann loco I’ve ever bought is a rogue, although I have to admit that I don’t have many of them, and absolutely no experience whatsoever of converting them to any other form of power, installing sound or one of Mr Barry’s fine after-market replacement chassis.

As I noted, my ten-year old Annie was still working perfectly when I turned it off about three hours ago after almost four hours track time [due to the cold snap we are presently experiencing - down to minus 8C tonight, it seems].

My two two-truck Shays, both early versions, are still awaiting their replacement trucks. Right now, both are still working just fine with the original plastic ones.
My Climax still hauls ten log cars, and has not yet suffered from a slipping anything.
My Heisler does not clunk, or start moving without the valve-gear joining in the fun.
My Connie has lost neither counterbalance weights, nor the much-needed connection between motor and gearbox, although I have to say that it no longer starts to move on 1.5V any more - now, after many moons of hauling, it seems to need almost 1.6V to get it moving…

So far as I am able to judge, my three-truck Shay appears to be another rogue, as it seems to have substantial heavy-gauge wiring twixt second and third trucks, and runs in total silence, apart from making an odd clicky and complex noise. I finally traced this untoward racket to noise made by the wheels passing over the occasional rail joint…

Guess I’ve just been unlucky with Bachmann products, eh?

Mind you, I’ve had the same run of appallingly bad luck with my fifteen Aristo-Craft locos, three USA Trains locos, and every single one of my Accucraft K27s. Mind you, I DO only have one. As for the collection of LGBs locos, many of which will never see their thirtieth birthday except by looking backwards, they too have been blighted with totally reliability running all their lives.

What AM I doing wrong?

tac

#20

Thanks for all the advice. I’m still conflicted…

Appearance:

I like the size of the C-16, the scale matches everything else on my layout. The overall appearance is very pleasing too. However, it seems less detailed and more toy-like then the Annie, at least from the pics I’ve seen. Are the sand pipes molded into the boiler, or are they separate parts? Is the cab supposed to sit so much higher than the deck of the tender? How much backhead detail does this C-16 have? And what’s with that big ugly screw head right in the middle of the cab?? That really looks cheesy.

The Annie looks awesome, with superb detail. I agree with Kevin that the boiler looks “off” somehow, but I could live with that. It’s a considerably larger loco, and the scale is bigger too, at 1:22 (correct?) So it probably wouldn’t blend with my other stuff quite as well. Great backhead detail too. Fitting in the crew seems to be tricky, from what I’ve read elsewhere.

Performance and reliability:

Both locos are getting mixed, but overall high, marks for performance. Smooth, slow speed is a must, IMHO, so I’m a little concerned about the reports of the Annie suddenly stopping. The new drive in the C-16 is supposed to be good, though I wonder how well that belt drive will hold up, pulling a load up 4% grades all the time?

Price:

The annie easily wins out on price, which may end up being the deciding factor. Ridge Road lists the C-16 at $264 but none are in stock. I don’t know yet when they’ll get them in, or whether the price will remain the same.