Large Scale Central

Calling All Air Wire Gurus

Electronics Power and Sound
#1

Hi All,

One of our club members asked me to help him get his LGB Mogul running again. It has been down for about 18 months (It just stopped working). Today we spent some time troubleshooting.

LGB Mogul

Airwire G2 Board & RF1300 Tx

Phoenix P8 Sound

After going no where, I decided to reset the loco address. It worked…but just getting power to the loco forward and reverse. No lights, no sound. This gentleman had this installed professionally several years ago and has lost touch with the guy that did the conversion/install. Looking at the Airwire wiring diagrams, everything seems to be wired right. The owner decided he wanted to go and run the loco on the layout and we decided to take a break for a week or so and do some research.

Questions…

Do I need to reprogram the lights and sound (CV)? How do I get the P8 to be on the same address as the G2?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, getting this loco running (with sound) will make he and his wife so happy.

Thank You

Bob

#2

No sound at all?

#3

No sound at all, no lights either

#4

Power problem. If the P8 was getting power it would at least play idle sound. It could be a G2 problem. I would at least try a factory reset on the G2. Then set CV1 to your address.

#5

Early in the thread the lights and sound are lumped together (I understand they both don’t work).

But aren’t the lights from the Airwire G2?

So, I’m confused that boomer implies that the lights come from the Phoenix.

Stay with the G2 first… if no lights then that should be easy to track down… test the lights with some power, check the connections/wiring of the G2…

Attack the Phoenix separately, and it would be preferable to use the programming interface… if not, it might be difficult to fix since I’m pretty sure you can’t read back CV’s on the P8.

Lights first, then the sound. Get the programmer.

Greg

#6

Greg,

I’m also wondering if there might be s separate power switch on the P8 that is off. The P8 should be putting out the basic sound regardless of the address being right or wrong.

#7

Boomer K. MOGWAI said:

Bob

You said: RF1300 Tx. I assume you mean T1300 throttle. That item cannot program what I am describing below. It is just a basic controller. You will need a T5000 or T9000 to perform this op. The T9000 is era for a G2 board although a T5000 will do the same thing with a little different format.

It says RF1300, I believe it is an older model. He does have another T1300 for his Shay, I guess we could try that with the Mogul

The problem may be the throttle. Try a different throttle.

You do not need to reprogram the lights and sound CVs. The Airwire board auto programs the P8 when you set the loco address. Make sure the P8 is plugged into the G-2 and powers up with it. Try resetting the loco number again. Make sure the T9000 is programmed for the correct frequency.

Still got nothing. Then the P8 maybe orphaned. Meaning for whatever reason it is “listening” on a different frequency/address from the G2. Since it gets it signal from the Airwire board this usually occurs when the P8 is disconnected during the reprogramming of the G2.

Is there a way to tell if the P8 is powered up? I dont recall seeing an indicator light?

The fact that you have no lights or sound indicates a loco address/ frequency mismatch. Verify with the owner the original freq and loco#. If you changed the frequency selector on the G2 put it back. Power everything down and verify the frequency in the T9000. Now the G2 and P8 should both be on the same frequency. Reprogram your loco #. The P8 will set to whatever loco# the air-wire board is set to. you should have sound. You will hear a beep if the board reprogrammed correctly.

We did get 1 or 2 beeps from the G2 board when we reprogrammed the address, then the loco wheels started to move.

Still got nothing. Well then it is going to get a little ugly. check for:

G2s are ancient technology and this one may have reached the end of its life. Especially true if you are running this on track power. Test the P8 with a different Airwire board.

He feels this conversion was done in 2006 and sound added in 2011 or 12. Is there a way to test the P8 out of the loco not connected to the G2?

Battery has a full charge: Phoenix likes a lot of amps. If the charge is low it might not be getting enough juice for the speaker to function properly.

Batteries were fully charged when we started

The lighting wires have pulled out or are not making good connection at the airwire board. This is very common especially if the wires are piggy backed without being soldered.

G2 connections seem to be very solid.

Burned out bulbs: LGB mogul had incandescent lights. The bulbs may be burned out. Airwire is best with LED. You can upgrade to LED by adding the appropriate resistor in line and trimming the leg wires on the LEDs. They will then slide right into the LGB pin sockets and fit the lamp housings.

We will check this, ran out of time yesterday, but entirely possible both bulbs are burnt out.

Blown speaker: P8 likes at least an 8 ohm speaker. The original LGB speaker should be big enough but if it is old then an upgrade is due.

It looks like the speaker was upgraded at the time of the install, but Ill put that on the list of things to check

Broken or loose wiring at the cannon plug: The wires tend to break right inside of the plug housing and may not be visible. If the engine still has the original LGB plug replace it with a 6 or 8 pin bayonet connector.

Looks to be an original LGB plug.

Hope this helps.

#8

Hi Bob, I am not an AirWire expert but go to my friend Kevin when I need one. I told him about your situation and here is his phone number. He can walk you thru using the 1300 transmitter to reset the system, change any settings and check the P8. Do you have the PC interface for the Phoenix P8? If so you can look at the address from your computer. It is too long to write up.

Call Kevin Rydzewski at 603-303-7265. You can call him now. The other transmitters mentioned have a display that makes it easier to program.

#9

Hello Bob if you can call Kevin he is a easy person to talk to, if not Take Paul B. advice he has forgot more about airwire than most people know. it is a good sign that you got some beeps out of the G2. RF1300 was first hand held i got not easy to use.

Richard

#10

Boomer K. MOGWAI said:

Greg

Yes the lights are solely a function of the airwire board. Yes work one component at a time to isolate the problems. Didn’t think that anyone needed to be told this. I am assuming that Bob has a working knowledge beyond the Airwire and Phoenix manuals. Sorry if I am speaking Boomereze. It is my native language.

Not sure what throttle you are using Bob but if it beeped then you programmed it. I own T9000 and T5000 throttles but not a T1300. According to CVP the T1300 does not do programming. Of course if anybody has a different opinion please contact CVP and tell the Manufacturer of Airwire that they are wrong.

Read it for yourself here: http://www.cvpusa.com/airwire_t1300.php

Bob if Kevin is willing to help you then by all means accept his offer as he a great resource on this subject. Good luck and keep us up to date with your results.

Boomer you are right about the T1300 but you are wrong both Bob and I said RF1300 and yes you can use it to program

Richard

#11

Bob,

What type of battery is in play (capacity-chemistry-cell count/voltage), I noted you mentioned the engine sat for around 18 months? As I recall; but alas maybe confusing this idea with other sound products that there is a minimal voltage required to fire any noise. I also noted you suggested the battery was fully charged and that the engine functioned in FWD-REV. That said you may simply have a power supply problem. Have you validated the voltage is up to par? Also I’d check the voltage with or under a load as voltage degradation may occur herein.

Batteries can fool you!

Michael

#12

"Boomer you are right about the T1300 but you are wrong both Bob and I said RF1300 and yes you can use it to program

Richard"

Yes you are correct. Once again I am guilty of not being specific…as I was not a responding to you.

For the record the RF and T are different throttles.

Everyone have a wonderful railroad day.

#13

No wonder knowledgeable folks don’t post here…too many EGGSPURTS

#14

Michael, doesn’t the fact that the loco runs forwards and backwards confirms that the battery is sufficient to power the lights, which are not working?

Hard to believe it is the battery if it can run the motor.

Greg

#15

Greg,

I’ve had multiple series parallel Li-Ion batteries drop cells, yet voltage checked okay, and with the lightest load fall on their face with other cells trying to feel the void be it capacity or voltage. We don’t know how well the engine ran, we don’t know what voltage was available when the G2/P8 was powered. Static voltage and connected voltage readings often differ greatly. Series-parallel pack configurations mask cell failures. Anyway it was just a thought…

Michael

#16

The incandescent bulbs on the Moguls were either 5V or something like 18V. It’s certainly plausible the elements are smoked as others suggested, I’d validate what voltage the lighting circuit provides when the problems are figured out.

Michael

#17

little confused at your reply.

Since he can now run the motor ok, surely there’s enough battery to run the lights.

So the problem with the lights is not the battery

Greg

Michael Glavin said:

Greg,

I’ve had multiple series parallel Li-Ion batteries drop cells, yet voltage checked okay, and with the lightest load fall on their face with other cells trying to feel the void be it capacity or voltage. We don’t know how well the engine ran, we don’t know what voltage was available when the G2/P8 was powered. Static voltage and connected voltage readings often differ greatly. Series-parallel pack configurations mask cell failures. Anyway it was just a thought…

Michael

#18

Hi guys…thank you for all the helpful advice. Unfortunately, I dont have the loco here with me, it is at the owners house. He is going to pull the tender apart this weekend so we can get at the P8. Once I have it in front of me, I can call Kevin.

Batteries - RC Car batteries (Ni Cad?) 2 x 7.2v packs. (Owner is going to switch to Li-ion battery packs after seeing mine and how small they are)

I may have had my terminology confused…we programmed?? the Loco address from the RF1300. This is the manual I was working off of, it does have limited programming.

http://www.cvpusa.com/doc_center/AirWire_Throttle_Manual.pdf

The owner isnt so concerned about the lights, but I want to get them working (small victory), he is more concerned about the sound. I think once I have access to the P8, we will know a bit more.

Thanks again, I will keep you updated

#19

If this were my loco acting the way it does, the first thing I would do is get a voltmeter and check power. He says no sound. When you turn the loco on it should power the G2 and the Phoenix P8 direct from the battery. The green power leads going to the P8 are probably connected to the Airwire power input coming from the battery. If that voltage is low then the P8 may not fire up. If that voltage is good then there is an open in the power to the Phoenix P8 or like I mentioned before, there is a separate power switch to the Phoenix which is in the off position. The lights are purely a G2 function. There again, check with a voltmeter at the G2 light outputs. The G2 will output battery voltage from the light outputs when on.

#20

I see the owner says the lights are low priority, but their non-working may be a clue to other problems, especially since the G2 appears working.

Greg