Any question about any near term new Bachmann utilizing AC molds will come at this years NMRA convention which is where Bmann has traditionally announced new product to be issued by next xmas.
If nothing earth shattering is announced we’ll all know nothing is in the offering for at least a year and maybe never. The market is still very stagnant.
I don’t need to defend myself.
The first the question was asked, and the speculation that now parts could be easily made, I gave lots of information about parts.
The second post asked the same questions again and clearly no further independent research was done.
This is not bullying, it’s repetition of facts which can be born out via Aristo’s own forum as I indicated. Go to that thread, and read it over objectively from the start. Read the Aristo site, search for “parts”… years begging for parts and years of the same answers from management.
It’s a shame that this forum allows name calling, I did none, but seems that it’s ok for others. In fact starting a thread just for a personal attack seems to be ok now.
The knowledgeable will eventually leave and not contribute to the common good and the place will be left with speculation or those who refuse to learn on their own, even when pointed in the right direction.
Part of this collection of forums will always continue, since it’s social.
The other part of this site will change and shrivel when facts are rebuked as personal bullying or bashing.
Greg
One could speculate there have been disagreements leading up to closure, there always is. Scot wants to resurrect what was once a thriving business with what is profitable perhaps with little capital and has no interest in paying for a pile of slow moving parts.
Andrew
There’s a famous quote from Lewis: “we don’t have parts just sitting on the shelves”… that statement blew everyone’s minds.
Isn’t the concept of “spare parts” is to have spares on hand? What if you went to a tire store and every tire had to be ordered and could only be gotten when Chevrolet made a new car?
Think about it.
Greg Elmassian said:
I don’t need to defend myself.
. . . .
This is not bullying, it’s repetition of facts which can be born out via Aristo’s own forum as I indicated. . . .
Greg,
As someone said - it’s not what you say, it’s the way you say it.
I used to have (still do sometimes) an unfortunate tendency to make proclamations that infuriated other people as they made me sound pompous. I noticed after a while that my father, who shares similar overbearing genes with me, had mitigated the problem by always putting "I think . . " in front of his statements. It defused the pompousness and let people disagree or discuss.
Calling attention to people’s mistakes or lack of research is bullying in many people’s eyes.
Vic Smith said:
Any question about any near term new Bachmann utilizing AC molds will come at this years NMRA convention which is where Bmann has traditionally announced new product to be issued by next xmas. If nothing earth shattering is announced we’ll all know nothing is in the offering for at least a year and maybe never. The market is still very stagnant.
In all this speculation, I am curious if ownership of the moulds actually sits with the Chinese factory that made them.
In general, if you finance a product (like a coach) you “own” the mould and the company that makes (and/or uses) the mould cannot sell or use it for other purposes.
I can’t believe Aristo didn’t retain intellectual property rights. Of course, they may have been signed over to the Kader factory to help with back payments, etc.
Intellectual property rights mean very little in China, the land of the copy… I think more counterfeit products come from China than anywhere else:
http://www.businessinsider.com/most-counterfeit-goods-are-from-china-2013-6
Often, the mold cost will be born by the manufacturing company if the customer agrees to make a certain amount of product, agreements vary, but remember how hard it was for LGB to get back some of the molds, and still there are counterfeits of several of their cars.
Greg
Greg…I seldom respond to any postings by the originator of this thread, for reasons I will not speak of here, but…
In this case, I will suggest that there are some people who create situations that they will go out of their way to call “Bullying”…then they go on to complain about the very people they can learn the most from, even if the education isn’t sugar coated, just for their weak minds…
I will acknowledge that bullying does exist in the real world, and should be avoided.
There hasn’t been any on these forums…from what I have seen…
We all need to self examine ourselves for thin skins, on a regular basis, or we will find fault with everyone that takes the chance of sharing, even the simplest, helpful thought.
Well you can speculate all you want but my belief is I will believe it when I see it. So I never take what is said very serious. Later RJD
Why can’t we just leave dead dogs lie?
Greg, no, you should not have to defend yourself. We are all in the same hobby and we should be friendly toward each other, even if we do not agree.
I have said, and still feel, that we should wait and see what Scott does. Speculation is interesting, but in the long run its just dreams, wishes and hopes that really doesn’t do any good. Some of the speculation is based in past events, some isn’t.
I wish Scott well, whatever path he takes, or has to take, to get his company started. I would wish for him to support existing product, but that really isn’t his responsibility, since his is a new company and not the olde Aristocraft.
Bob, letting dead dogs lie would probably be the most prudent action. But the rumor mill will always be turning.
Let me play devil’s advocate for a moment…
Aristo’s products are a known commodity. If you’re going to re-introduce them, you’re not putting anything out on the market that hasn’t been seen already. Unless you address some of the “issues” that surround Aristo’s products (real and perceived), people are going to say “it’s Aristo with a different-colored box.” That, and you’re competing against a fairly voluminous 2nd-hand market of identical products to what you’re manufacturing new. How many are you going to realistically be able to sell?
Would it not be more advantageous–if you want to capitalize on Aristo’s current status–to come out with something completely different? Use that to make a name for yourself and establish your own unique benchmark for quality? Then, once that’s established, avail yourself of the Aristo molds, but re-engineer them (like Aristo did with the Delton stuff, of Hartland is doing with Kalamazoo?) Then, it’s no longer “Aristo in a different box,” but “XYZ’s updated version of Aristo’s product.”
We hear the lament every year–“nothing but repaints of last year’s stuff.” We tire easily of repaints. And if we don’t tire of them, we lament that they’re still not being painted for “our” railroad. There’s no lack of ripe-for-the-picking prototypes, both steam and diesel. Look at the folks already salivating over AML’s new announcements. I’d love to see Aristo’s offerings back on the market, but I think it’s foolish to start pushing new plastic through old molds just because you’re launching a new brand. True, the molds have value, there is a level of demand for the product, and your tooling costs are minimal. But I think you have to pit that against the level of demand for something that hasn’t been done before. From a strategic standpoint–especially when launching a new brand–I think you can make a very strong argument to let the Aristo stuff sit on the shelf a while. Its time will come, and if you’re smart out of the gate, you’ll get people replacing their old Aristo products with yours just because they perceive it to be leaps and bounds better.
Later,
K
Well said Kevin.
That pretty well every recent offering from Aristo had something wrong with it, is their Bete Noire.
It would be pointless of anyone to bring out reruns of any past Aristo models, unless the known problems were fixed.
Just last week I converted two very last run SD-45’s to battery R/C. The installation went very smoothly and they ran beautifully until you put them on a typical on the ground garden RR.
The gauge seems to be slightly wide and the fixed pivot axles in the power trucks are at the outboard ends of the trucks. The result is the fixed wheel base is as long as it could possibly be, meaning the loco will derail on even the slightest twisting of the track. There is a simple fix to the problem, just like the diesel rail-car, but why did Aristo not make the fix during production? I will tell you why, Aristo could not give a stuff. Bang it out and flog it because Joe public had been conned into buying whatever was stuck under their noses. It is that attitude above all else that has led to the downfall of Aristo.
Any future users of the moulds, tooling and engineering had better fix all the problems on every loco or they will end up with the same fate. Down the gurgler.
The Joe Average buying public is awake to those idiosyncrasies nowadays.
Rather than listen to the advice given to them by the likes of Greg et al, the advice givers were vilified by Aristo management and are still being hounded by the “believers” as being the cause of the downfall of Aristo.
Un-effing-believable!!!
I am NOT that optimistic that any rebranded new Aristo would be any better than the old Aristo.
Kevin you touched on something I had been thinking about but didnt really want to get into on this thread, but here it goes, ASSUMING Kader does eventually get ACs tooling and eventually DOES decide to move into 1/29 under the Bachmann or Williams lines, to simply reissue the identical old products without correcting the well known problems that have plagued the brand for the last decade, would be economic suicide
IF they were going to rebrand the product, it would make a ton of sense to go thru the drivetrains, figure out what needed to be improved and do it BEFORE they reissued new product. That would be the logical thing to do.
Will they do it? to quote Samuel Jackson “Oh HELL no” …How long have we been griping about some of the very same QC problems coming off the production line with Bachmann??? The Chinese overlords at Kader do seam to have turned a corner recently with the upgraded Annie and Lyn drives and the new C-19…but the jury is still out, they havent really shown that this trend will continue. Even if they did fix everything then you can guarantee a 3x or 4x fold in price. We wont know until the NMRA convention if they will have anything new this year to judge by.
NO NO NO NO!!!
1:24 is dead and I’ve established an Aridzona Disposal site where we will be environmentally aware of sensitive feelings.
Please send all 1:24 here ASAP before insensitivities are flung your way!
Some folks who are right all the time become a tad arrogant with out realizing it. It must be exasperating to explain it all, just to have to repeat to another … I’ve been the ‘nother’ and in my own sweet way made it worse … older and wiser … well older … I’m going for the nudge and a nod.
I like my belt drive C-16, wish I had more flatcars… High grade went out in stacked bags…
John
nice try John but ya aint gettin my stuff
Dang!
Kevin, what you say makes sense. I wonder if Scott is thinking the same. It will be interesting to hear what Scott has to say this weekend, if he tips his hand that is.
Just a weird thought, again under the subject heading of “I’m dreaming”. So please don’t get too upset with this “dream”. Why couldn’t a company, like NWSL, or a new start up, make new power blocks and drives for the existing Aristo line. Not only would they have a market with the vast numbers of product already out there, but they would also have a market with the scratch-builders and kit-bashers too…assuming they built them correctly.
The Aristo 2 axle diesel trucks with one axle rotating along the motor axis, are brilliant. Just that their application is ass backwards in the locos.
The basic design of the Aristo 3 axle diesel trucks are also pretty good if they had actually been built as originally designed. That is springy padding on either side of the gearboxes to allow a bit of rotation along the motor axis. Plus, if one axle had to be rigid, mount them the correct way around in the locos so the length of the rigid wheelbase is as short as possible. Plus, make sure the wheel gauge and back to back measurements are correct.
David Maynard said:
Kevin, what you say makes sense. I wonder if Scott is thinking the same. It will be
Just a weird thought, again under the subject heading of “I’m dreaming”. So please don’t get too upset with this “dream”. Why couldn’t a company, like NWSL, or a new start up, make new power blocks and drives for the existing Aristo line. Not only would they have a market with the vast numbers of product already out there, but they would also have a market with the scratch-builders and kit-bashers too…assuming they built them correctly.
Why not just modify Aristo frames (modelers) /molds (theoretically the manufacturer it would be more $$ to change the mold) to allow USAT trucks to fit? USAT has both 4 axle and 6 axle versions? Has anyone done this already?