Large Scale Central

British copycat might have killed Aster Hobbies for everybody

General Discussion
#7

While I take your poit, I still agree with my friend Andrew Pullen. To have your Rolls-Royce-quality product upstaged in public by a Ford Taurus is galling indeed, and, as he notes, there were at least thirty-five other locos to choose from that might have had equal customer appeal.

My interest is purely academic - since finding my 00 Hornby BR experimental blue RMN ‘Canadian Pacific’ a few years ago, I have long cherished a dream for one in live steam G1. There would have been no way that I was ever going to make do with anything less than the 3-cylinder, correct valve gear Aster model, and would have been happy to have disposed of a few less-used models to get one.

Now, thanks to what I consider to have been an act of perversity - good business practice my butt - not only are we not getting a model that would have set a new standard in excellence, but the very existence of the whole company might be in doubt. The benevolent Hans Huyler and his mega models apart, there is no doubt that Aster’s range of British outline models formed a major part of their success story since the very first Aster model, the Southern Railway Schools class, sold a couple of thousand units back in the middle 70’s.

It’s a very great pity.

tac

#8

Funny, in another thread, we’re lamenting the loss of low-cost locomotives, postulating that the trend towards higher-priced locos is ultimately bad for the hobby. In this one, we’re lamenting that a low-cost alternative to Aster is bad for the hobby? (Or just bad for Aster?)

It doesn’t matter what the locomotive the upstart chose as their first offering is. The mere existence of an inexpensive source of what hopefully turns out to be a line of 1:32 British locomotives is a game changer. Look at what Accucraft has done in the US. Fifteen years ago, if I were to go to a steamup, I’d see Asters and Roundhouses. I was out at the live steam track at the Colorado RR Museum Wednesday morning, and all 7 of the locos there were Accucraft. But Aster and Roundhouse are still in business despite that. They’ve had to adapt, but they’ve-thus far at least–managed to stay around.

Aster will always have its loyal followers because it’s viewed as the Rolls Royce of live steam. They make beautiful models that run very well. But they’ve not been the only game in town for quite some time, and Andrew has had to have realized that by now. I can sympathize with him about the spcific choice of prototype, but it really doesn’t matter. Had it been a Flying Scottsman, Mallard, or any other iconic British loco the effect on people considering Aster’s loco would have been the same. Few “average modelers” would be able to afford both, so they’d choose. Aster affecianados would choose Aster because it’s Aster. Other modelers will choose based on price or fondness for any one prototype or specific features being offered, etc.

I say “bring it on.” Competition is good for the hobby. And if we’re going to argue in one thread that the hobby needs low-cost alternatives to high-priced “boutique” locomotives, then this is a prime example of what the hobby needs.

Later,

K

#9

Link to Gauge 1 Model Company -

http://www.g1m.co.uk/

If the locomotive is ‘lacking in detail’ in comparison to the Aster version, then the Aster version must be one very nicely detailed locomotive. G1MC, I guess, is most likely using Bowande to manufacture their locomotives and coaches. This company has previously produced a G1 model locomotive that was well received in the market and at an affordable price.

Link to Bowande -

http://www.bowandedirect.com/

Edit: In case anyone doubts the quality capability of this company, here is a Shay I remember being announced many years ago. From memory, Wuhu Arts & Crafts (Bowande) was formed by ex-employees of Accucraft.

http://www.bowande.cn/product/elist1.asp?type_type=1&product_id=27

They also do a Gauge 3 (1/22.5) standard gauge Britannia class locomotive ‘Britannia’.

http://www.bowande.cn/product/elist1.asp?type_type=1&product_id=40

#10

Tim - I am

a. well aware of the product line of the G1MCo.

b. I agree that their G1 Britannia is good value for money, even though it does not have ‘correct’ valve gear.

c. Other Bowande products are also well-received - the 2-6-4 tank loco for instance is a good performer and has proven very popular.

d. The Gauge 3 Britannia is a remarkable model for the money, and bears comparison with the very best of British Gauge 3 custom producers.

However, all that is moot. Mr Pullen feels that Mr Taylor has crapped in his hat, and then rubbed it in - all in public - at THE Gauge 1 show of the year. His professional pride has been slighted. And regardless of whetheror not you subscribe to the elitism that Mr Strong accuses Aster owners of, there are a great many folks here in yUK for whom Aster is the only game in town, and are upset by the thought that now they are not going to get a model they wanted from the manufacturer of choice.

Still, I’ve made my position clear. I was never a real contender for the Aster model unless I sold off a few of my less-used models to fund it. And now, I never will. Like many others, all I ever wanted was the very best for MY hard-earned money, and I won’t be settling for anything less than that now by buying the G1MCo version.

tac, owner of ONE Aster loco.

#11

So…Aster doesn’t want any competition?

Welcome to the real world is all I can say!

I would love it if my competitors didn’t offer or carry the same product that I do.

#12

Sounds déjà vu! Like that fit Rolf Richter had at the 2005 Nürnberg Fair when BRAWA displayed/announced their G4/5 complete with consist. He was going to sue them etc. etc. and the very next day a Magnus model was displayed at the LGB booth.

BTW since the LS community in yUK gets regularly soaked by the importers/dealers this should be a step in the right direction, provided the price reflects all the “missing detail”.

:wink:

#13

Maybe this is a good time for Aster to come out with an affordable steamer for those that would love to own an Aster but cant afford one at the current prices.

#14

Aster always reminds me of Rolls Royce, now there are plenty of alternative to a Rolls, and for years and years Bentley’s WERE identical to Rolls only with different nameplates - yet Rolls seams to do itself quite well. As I have been told many times if people want LGB quality they will pay LGB prices. People who want Aster quality will pay Aster prices, period. This is like when Newquida came out and everyone was grousing that the end was neigh for LGB, but as we found out just because there is a cheaper version of something doesn’t mean everyone wants the lesser quality product. LGB is doing well, and I suspect once Aster gets its nose back in joint it will continue as well.

#15

“And regardless of whetheror not you subscribe to the elitism that Mr Strong accuses Aster owners of, there are a great many folks here in yUK for whom Aster is the only game in town, and are upset by the thought that now they are not going to get a model they wanted from the manufacturer of choice.”

If the models made by Bowande are reportedly that good and that well-received, what’s the problem? The model is being manufactured, just not by Aster. Those who want the model will still have their model. It’s only those who want that model built by Aster that would be left out. That is the textbook example of brand loyalty, which qualifies as a form of elitism. If there is a significant difference in quality (such as LGB vs. Newquida), then history has demonstrated that people will gladly pay for quality.

As I read the letter, Andrew did not say he was pulling the plug just yet, just warning of a market split that would cut into sales and threaten the project (thus future projects). If there are “a great many folks here in the yUK for whom Aster is the only game in town,” then let 'em belly up to the bar and support the manufacturer of their choice. If the modelers in the UK are that fiercely brand loyal, they need to put their money where their mouth is. If they don’t, how “loyal” are they?

No doubt Andrew is a bit put off by all this. There’s part of me that would be pretty chapped, too. But as to the timing of the announcement, it is “THE Gauge-1 show of the year,” when else would a manufacturer make a big announcement like that? That’s partly why those shows exist.

But, come on… laying the blame for Aster UK’s theoretical demise at the feet of a young upstart? Sorry, but I can’t sympathize there. If you don’t want your competition copying your models, don’t show 'em your cards. That’s a fundamental principle of all forms of competition; business, games, warfare–you don’t let the other guy know what you’re doing. You can’t blame the competition for using market information you’re providing them against you. If your business model is such that you must show people what you’re doing that far in advance, then you had darned well better expect to have the rug pulled out from under you by someone who can beat you to market. There’s no “gentleman’s agreement” in large scale trains that product overlap is verboten. See it quite often.

Later,

K

#16

“Sounds déjà vu! Like that fit Rolf Richter had at the 2005 Nürnberg Fair when BRAWA displayed/announced their G4/5 complete with consist. He was going to sue them etc. etc. and the very next day a Magnus model was displayed at the LGB booth.”

Bad Karma to mock the dead…

(not surprised though).

#17

Kevin Strong said:

“a form of elitism.” ," then let 'em belly up to the bar and support the manufacturer of their choice." “they need to put their money where their mouth is.”

But, come on… laying the blame for Aster UK’s theoretical demise at the feet of a young upstart? Sorry, but I can’t sympathize there. You can’t blame the competition for using market information you’re providing them against you. Later,

K

Classic. Absolutely classic.

A US Media type telling subjects of The Commonwealth how they should think.

Good reading, however.

TOC

#18

Lets keep things civil here, folks. My request for that in the Bachman thread was soundly ignored. Lets not make it two threads.

#19

John Joseph Sauer said:

“Sounds déjà vu! Like that fit Rolf Richter had at the 2005 Nürnberg Fair when BRAWA displayed/announced their G4/5 complete with consist. He was going to sue them etc. etc. and the very next day a Magnus model was displayed at the LGB booth.”

Bad Karma to mock the dead…

(not surprised though).

Just stating facts, probably too inconvenient for you.

BTW a mfg/importer/distributor/dealer who makes statements like that will get “everyone” (with a bit of background info) in the hobby segment thinking : “Holy mackerel, what’s up??” Just like it did at the NTF back in 2005.

#20

Well it is called competition and I’m glade to see it. Maybe we will get some locos we all can afford. Time will tell how good the product is. Later RJD

#21

Terry,

I do empathise with you. If I was financially capable and able to purchase a Merchant Navy class locomotive in gauge 1, I would definately like it to be made by Aster for my peace of mind knowing the locomotive was built to the highest standards.

However, one manufacturer telling another what he can and cannot build is a little ‘elitist’ as stated. I feel that an Aster devotee will purchase an Aster locomotive. If the market is split as Mr. Pullen believes, then whose fault is that. Free enterprise marketting is a fact of life. If Aster believe insufficient fans will purchase a production run then that is Aster’s problem and not due to G1MC. They have a right to produce any locomotive they want. How would Mr. Pullen react if this upstart Mr. Taylor bitterly complained that Aster were encroaching on his territory? I can imagine Aster’s response.

I feel that Aster believes it ‘owns’ the British steam outline market and does not appreciate some upstart encroaching on their territory. Unfortunately, for Aster, that is not how markets work. Consumers have freedom of choice when there is a choice to be made. When Aster was the only kid in town then there was no choice and no doubt market prices (particularly in the resale market) reflected the lack of choice due the limited production numbers available.

If Mr.Pullen feels that a competitor will kill off and jeapordise future Aster sales and production then I suggest he look to his market and his loyal consumers and encourage their brand loyalty with unbeatable quality locomotives.

Aster only produce in very limited numbers so the potential market must be minusculely small so I appreciate that a competitor will have an impact. Like Aster, I believe at this stage G1MC only have a prototype running. Have G1MC commenced production?

I have always considered Aster to be the prima donna in the steam locomotive world and the best that money could buy, but alas never saw myself as a potential customer no matter how many locomotives I could sell to cover the purchase price. For the price of an Aster locomotive downunder one could almost buy a new automobile. From memory the Aster G1 Garratt, NSWGR AD60 sold years ago for around $15,000.00 and the run was sold out immediately. Other Aster models typically sell for $8000.00 upwards and one generally has to preorder several years in advance to secure a locomotive. It certainly seems an elitist market to me.

It suprises me that people with this much money to burn are not investing in blue chip stock on the stock market.

#22

Tim Brien said:

…

It suprises me that people with this much money to burn are not investing in blue chip stock on the stock market.

Aster locomotives don’t crash.

#23

Hmmm…

I have two Aster steamers. Rarely use them anymore. One is…different, being a LetsGoBroke/Aster FrankS.

The other…well…

The guy that owned it called me up many years ago, screaming into the phone…“You want this POS? I’ve burned my fingers for the last time!”

C&S Mogul. Horrid little fuel evaporation system.

Norm Saley sorted it for me.

Originally, took liquid fuel from the bottom of the tank in the tender, fed to a “vapourising cannister” on the left side of the cab…hoping the heat from the boiler backhead would cause vapourisation.

Whilst it does work, in cold damp weather, it seems one is always pouring hot water into the tank to keep THAT fuel vapourised.

I’ve thought about cutting a big hole in the bottom of the boiler and firebox, and putting a Barry’s drive on #2 axle.

It would be a really useful engine then.

Boy, if that don’t pixx off the Aster freaks…

But, the only two live steamers I have are Asters. Had an Aster Big Boy here for a long, long time, but 8’ minimum RADIUS meant NOT 7’11" radius.

Of course, it ran very well, whistle and bell and all of that.

Barry had to sort some gears when it had stripped it’s gearbox out, hence the stay here.

TOC

#24

HJ,

you are correct that Aster locomotives do not CRASH, but if you see a video of an Aster locomotive running then it is like a new parent watching its child walking or riding a bike for the first time. The ‘nervous’ owners run beside or slightly behind them ever watchful in case they fall and suffer injury.

#25

Unlike the first run of Rubys, which were known to (and were observed by this reporter) lift off the rails at speed, stub their toes, and tumble into the brush, with frantic new owners following the “smoke trail” to find and retrieve them.

Gawd, was that funny. Every single one of them, first shipment in was delivered en-masse to a local GR club meet, and like lemmings, they all fired them up in the upper “yard” and let them go, wide open throttle, where that proceeded to a down 3% gradient…and at a scale 200 MPH lifted right off the rails…we all just stood and watched as each one came down the hill…often the next driver yelling for the one in front (who was busy beating the bushed looking for his lost Ruby) to get out of the way, as his was about to go the same place the first guy was standing.

We still talk about that, and it’s been some considerable time now.

Even some of the participants are no longer with us.

TOC

#26

$8000 to $15,000 ??? OK someone tell me at those prices, just how big is the Aster market?

Seams to me at that price point there product run is measured in the triple (and not high) digits.