Large Scale Central

Because there usually isn't a need for a "Scenery" forum

General Discussion
#1

I’m about to embark on a rock building adventure of epic proportions.

Anybody with tips on how to make rock that looks like rock out of hydrocal … instructions would be appreciated immensely!

Specific issues (not excluding other ideas…)

I have some ceiling tiles to break up and use in some areas. Other areas I’ve been considering using tinfoil molds (worked well on the SCRY Mark I) But, for the areas where I’m applying plaster and then standing there with a putty knife in one hand and a paintbrush in the other … some “Quick, do this before it dries” tips would help.

Also, when painting … dark to light, or the other way 'round? I have lots of photos I’ve collected to work from … but some basics would be helpful.

Also… for “wet” areas (like where the water runs down the rocks…) will sprayed glosscoat work, or just mess things up?

In the interest of not doing this the "Thomas Edison"way, and discover 1000 ways NOT to make good looking rocks, anybody with experience either from the smaller scales or dioramas or whatever … help please!

Matthew (OV)

#2

Unless you’re inside, plaster probably isn’t the answer. Look for real rocks on craigslist, they’re often under ‘free’. Mine are layed dry, but masonry cement is a good choice, too.

If you want to come pick them up, I still can get about 4 more tons of head sized and larger rocks from a family friend.

And a how-to book on rock gardening can be your best friend.

#3

I am inside … :slight_smile: That’s why unlike most, I need to make my own scenery… just bigger!

#4

Matthew (OV),
I remember using plaster for HO…and didn’t like it at all. Then they came out with Mountains in Minutes Polyfoam - they also sell castings that you can use as masters to make your own rocks. Neat stuff.

Hobbylinc sells a bunch of this stuff: http://www.hobbylinc.com/isle_model_railroad_scenery

Here’s sort of a summary of all the different ways of doing scenery: http://www.building-your-model-railroad.com/model-train-scenery_terrain.html

Or if you just want to paint it: http://www.building-your-model-railroad.com/painting-rocks.html

#5

I used “Mountain in Minutes” years ago for small scale military stuff. I loved it.
But in Large Scale, I’m thinking it would cost a fortune :wink:
Ralph

#6

I remember reading about some light weight stuff called hyper-tufa. It was a mix of cement (or mortar) and peat moss. Molds were made from heavy duty foil, just crumbled up then shaped into a bowl or a rock like shape. I’ve used rock molds made from rubber that was painted over a real rock in layers, then peeled off and plaster poured in it. Of course hydrocal would work just as well as the hyper-tufa mix, but it might be cheaper. As for color, they used to sell tints for coloring mortar. I’m not sure if they still do. Then again, you can always buy a book about it. Scenery for Model Railroads…:wink:

#7

For rocks on my outdoor backyard pike I have been using broken chunks of concrete recycled from demolition sites, and 99% of visitors have never noticed!!!

I do get a lot of visitors, both club and Association members, family, neighbours, members of the public.

The concrete chunks look like limestone, which is what they really are - man made limestone, and I stick with that natural colour.

Some chunks look like conglomerate, of course, which is particularly interesting, and I generally use them in clusters. I dry stack all my rockwork. I position them judiciously, and stick to the natural colour of the material; I do not try to alter the colour.

Yes, concrete colorant is available. A fellow clubmember uses it. He reports that it does fade in time, which surprised me. He said, “Yes, even commercial concrete pavers, which are tinted with the same stuff, fade with time…”

I have also acquired some natural limestone, with its interesting complex eroded shapes. Being similar in colour, they blend readily with my concrete chunks, and I do prefer its texture, especially for rock features that I wish to highlight. For the vast bulk of the scenery, however, the recycled concrete chunks work extremely well.

My wife has made planters of hypertufa, a fun project; they are darker than my limestone rockwork, FWIW. You can pour beer or yogurt on them to encourage moss and algae growth; I imagine you could try this on concrete rocks and maybe others as well, though I haven’t tried it.

Bottom line: I feel that finding and collecting recycled concrete is a lot less trouble than making your own rocks!

#8

First off I would try and die the white plaster before you make molds. Add a bit of base colored rock to the mix. That way when you chip off a piece of rock in the future, white plaster doesn’t stick out like a sore thumb.
Secondly washes from dark to light work good for painting rocks. But the plaster needs to be completely set. I made the mistake in HO trying to paint ‘green’ plaster. It ended in failure. After the plaster is set, then spray prior to painting with either ‘wet water’ or regular water (can’t remember what I used). This way the washes don’t get sucked into the plaster as the plaster is already a bit wet. As for ratio’s of paint to water? No idea… Just experiment.
A few companies for smaller scales make some decent looking rock molds. You only need 3-4, get the biggest ones you can find. Just change the angle of the rock as you apply it, and your never know that you used the same mold over and over again. (Wet the mold with ‘wet water’ before you pour plaster in) With molds you can either let the ‘rock’ harden on the bench, and then place on the layout, or you can wait until the mold is almost set and place on the layout to bond with the rock surface… I always let it dry on the bench.

Craig

#9

Matthew,

Some of the old HO books by Kalmbach have some good information in them for indoor scenery.
I am sure you can still find copies readily available.

Some to try would be.

SCENERY FOR MODEL RAILROADS By Bill McClanahan

How to Build REALISTIC MODEL RAILROAD SCENERY By Dave Frary

There is another one about “Hard shell scenery and Zip Texturing” by Linn Westcott
that was very cutting edge stuff back in the day.

Maybe some of this could be adapted for your use, after all we use the same techniques
outdoors just with different materials.

Have fun
Rick

#10

Matthew
Craig gives some good info on rock molds. It is also very easy to make your own. Just find a rock that you like the look of and with some Woodland Scenics liquid Latex and a roll of 4" medical gauze or cheesecloth you can easily make your own to any size you like. Just coat the rock with a couple of coats of the latex, drying between coats, lay on the gauze or cheesecloth and apply another coat on top allowing it to soak through the cloth. Let dry and then add another 3 or 4 layers of latex. When completely dry, peel off the rock, support in a bed of sand or fine gravel, kitty litter works good, and pour in the hydrocal. The purpose of the gauze is to add strength so that the mold doesn’t tear so easy when peeling of the rock or the casting. Be sure to spray with wet water before pouring in the hydrocal or it will be very hard to get out. Molds can be made to any size you like. On my HO scale railroad I had some that were 18" long.
For filling between the rock casting I used drywall patching plaster (the premixed kind) as the hydrocal set very fast and didn’t always allow time for carving to blend.
When coloring I always preferred to start with the light colors. It is a lot easier to make it darker than lighter. For coloring, I mostly used artists acrylic paints, thinned out.

Good Luck and have fun.
Ron

#11

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8483/8209485423_5366b2be59_c.jpg)

#12

It seems to be impossible to post pics on this site from here. This is from Fliker photo, seems to disapear after while, I know you do inside scenery, this is a shot of my cement outside.
Dennis

#13

I like all of this!

I have a couple of prefabbed rubber rock molds, and have had some success with crumpled tinfoil in the past. The hardshell is in place, or will be soon (depending on where on the line you mean…)

I’d like to hear more about the sculpting techniques folks use like in Dennis’ photo above.

#14

This was my last effort.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/slatecreek/_forumfiles/Hillside.jpg)

The difference this time is there are large expanses of rock… several feet wide by several feet high, so I’m going to need to combine techniques across a large area. Matthew (OV)

#15

[b]Real rock and dirt is cheaper…

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/richard_smith/Temporary/241-SceneryBackdrop-RockDetail-22Jun08.JPG)

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/richard_smith/Temporary/261-ViewAlongRocks-Figure-13Jul08.JPG)

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/richard_smith/Temporary/264-ViewSouth-Figure-13Jul08.JPG)

And everything’s hollow underneath…[/b]

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/richard_smith/Temporary/234-SceneryBackdrop-Screen-20Jun08.JPG)

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/richard_smith/Temporary/237-SceneryBackdrop-Fabric-20Jun08.JPG)

Outdoors but it’s on benchwork same as indoors. Of course real rock & dirt could be combined with artificial indoors for smaller detail parts.

#16

In the past, I’ve used rocks, dirt and twigs to represent rocks, dirt and downed trees and branches on my 0 gauge layouts. Real trees work ok indoors, but only for a day or so, and then they have to be taken back outside.

#17

on my (never finished, because of moving) last layout i had a mountain of about 5 x 6 foot wide and up to 4 foot high. over a minimalistic sceleton of wood scraps (whiteglued, wired and nailed together) i formed the mountain using fine chickenwire and staples. (if one owns/is owned by cats, the wooden structure should be stronger near mountaintops as you can clearly see in some of the pics) some strong toiletpaper “painted” with thinned either plaster or crackfiller for the basic surface. (at overhangs i put the paper from the inside, plastering both sides) for the rock-finish i “painted” with normal portland cement mixed with crushed crumbles from some portland, that had gone solid due to too long storage. as seen in the pics, the mountain still lacked some colouring and vegetation. only thing i had done already was some darkening with a black spraycan, where suposedly the soot of the engine’s smoke should be visible. as can be seen in the foreground of pic #8, using latex or silicone instead of crackfiller or plaster lets the cement crumble away. allow me a more generally observation: most modellers make the mistake, to form their mountains according to trackplan. that does not look natural. i try to evade this, by forming first a complete mountain (out of paperstrips), ignoring some of the tracks. then i plan in the cuts, the railroaders have to make for their track.

(http://kormsen.info/landscape/bilder/bergalt1.JPG)

(http://kormsen.info/landscape/bilder/bergalt2.JPG)

(http://kormsen.info/landscape/bilder/bergalt3.JPG)

(http://kormsen.info/landscape/bilder/bergalt4.JPG)

(http://kormsen.info/landscape/bilder/cattletrain1.JPG)

(http://kormsen.info/landscape/bilder/cattletrain2.JPG)

(http://kormsen.info/landscape/bilder/cattletrain3.JPG)

(http://kormsen.info/landscape/bilder/zirkuszug1.JPG)

(http://kormsen.info/landscape/bilder/zirkuszug2.JPG)

(http://kormsen.info/landscape/bilder/zirkuszug3.JPG)

#18

Korm said: “allow me a more generally observation:
most modellers make the mistake, to form their mountains according to trackplan. that does not look natural.
i try to evade this, by forming first a complete mountain (out of paperstrips), ignoring some of the tracks. then i plan in the cuts, the railroaders have to make for their track.”

That is so true. Excellent point! Unless the scenery is at least somewhat planned along with the trackwork it can look very contrived and unconvincing. Railroads on benchwork whether indoor or out will always have the problem of fitting everything in while making it look natural.

#19

Matt,

Extruded foam (the blue construction stuff at building supplies) is pretty cheap, comes in larger sizes and creates big areas quickly. Most lumber yards have damaged pieces, but you’ve got to ask. Also construction sites might have some. Have you ever experimented with “Great Stuff”. Start off small, it does grow quickly and is quite messy before it cures, but then can be broken in to shapes. Also works as a great glue for foam. I did say it can get messy. Once shape is achieved, I think traditional methods of plaster and latex paint works well. Sawdust can be used for ground cover along with kitty litter or floor dry from auto parts stores. You can buy White glue in gallon cans at places like Home Depot.

Look forward to seeing your progress.

#20

I still am building my HO layout as well and this is what I do.

I use standard Plaster for the mix. I add some India Ink into the mix to make it a grey color. (Someone mentioned dying your plaster and that is a very good idea.) Use a different color if the base color of your rock is different. Most of my rock is a grey to brown color. Make sure the tinted plaster is only a light color. Dont make the mistake I made and tint the plaster too much. Then other colors will not show through. I had to pull off an entire cliffside because of that!!!

I pour my molds on my work bench and then let them harden. Using the croupled tin foil is a great idea for large expanses of rock. However, (this is the Geologist in me talking), be careful not to have to much of a continuous face of rock. Rock faces are jagged and have lots of breaks in them. Take advantage of this so you dont have to handle such large pieces of plaster at one time.

For attaching my rocks I use a plaster with Perlite in it. The perlite is a sandy substance that adds texture to the surface. That tip is from well known scenery expert Dave Frary. I got a 50 lb bag at a local contractor supply store. Mix the stuff to a paste consistancy. I glop the stuff on the shell I’m applying the mold and then press the mold down so the perlite plaster oozes out the sides. Then I either apply another mold next to the other or use a wetted paint brush to smooth out the Perlite plaster.

To paint I use watered down acrylic earth toned paint and put it in a spray bottle. I spray my base coats, usually greys and browns. Let those dry. Then I add highlights to the shadows by painting watered down india ink into the shadows. Let that dry and then dry brush with white to highlight the faces. Thats about it. The painting is very subjective, just make sure the coloring is not uniform. No rocks look all the same.

Most of the steps I use are learned from Dave Frary. He has many books and videos out there. His techniques are very simple and easy to do.