What type of batteries are you using for the Revolution or RCS system?
Tony seems to prefer NiCd batteries for his system, but I have been using NiMH with success for some years. The number of batteries, and hence the voltage, I use varies but normally I aim for 14.4V from 12 AA or sub C cells. However, I have gone as low as 9.6 volts from 8 cells although admittedly that was with Cliff Barker’s r/c system. Afraid I have not used Revolution.
There has been a lot of discussion on this board over the subject of the “best” batteries to use; ahve a look in the “Power and Sound” section and you might find experience of the Revolution system.
Steve
Users in the EU HAVE to use NiMh types as Nicads are banned for sale in the EEC due Cadmium( content/disposal…)
I prefer NiCd for a number of reasons. Not the least being they are still available here.
Whilst they may develop a memory if incorrectly charged, looked after they last a very long time.
Last year I replaced a 17 yo SubC NiCd pack for an old customer in an NW2.
Sanyo claim 1,000 recharges - v - NiMh being 500 cycles and many of NiMh types self discharge.
Of course I can only use them where they will fit. For smaller locos I use the hybrid LSD AA size which do not self discharge. For really tiny locos I do use Li-Ion.
I do understand the limitations of non availability overseas.
Yes , it almost makes one look back with a sigh at the old track power .
As it happens , I use both track and r/c , but the r/c I use is used in my trucks and boats too.
The r/c for my steamers has to have servos as on model aircraft (but not on model aircraft frequency)
So I think I may use a lot more batteries than Tony’s control system which I have seen and it worked brilliantly .
As I can only use NiMh batteries , I can vouch for Tony’s preference ; I have to have a bank of re-chargers going , with a record of when charged so as to drain and recharge in rotation . No big deal , but I would like batteries that don’t self drain .
Mike
Bill,
I used the 14.8V Lithium Ion in my Bachmann C19 Tender from LSC sponsor, Cordless Renovations, during the Invasions 2013 and 2014. Revolution system with Revolution Sound Receiver.
See Paul Norton’s OVGRS.ORG pages for how he does his installs on various locos and with various battery types.
I have seen On30 locos STUFFED with LI batteries(lower voltage), receiver and speaker. If I didn’t have pics of my own, I would not have believed it!
Tell us what loco and controller you are thinking of using.
One of the guys here at the VGRS.US is using Tony RCS from AUS with a Bachmann Boxcab with good success.
I’m using 14.8 volt Li-Ion packs. I’ve been buying the 2200mAh packs from AllElectronics.com.
For $15, they can’t be beat. Some have wondered if these are 2nd-tier batteries, but I’ve been running them all Summer, and they seem to hold a charge just as well as the same packs I’ve bought from other suppliers (at twice or more the price).
Later,
K
So just out of curiosity, how much running time do you get with these battery setup? With sound?
With the 2200mAh batteries, I get between 2 - 3 hours run time with sound.
They charge up in around 90 minutes or so.
Later,
K
With my 14.8 volt, 2200 mAh batteries, I usually wear out before the battery does.
Steve Featherkile said:
With my 14.8 volt, 2200 mAh batteries, I usually wear out before the battery does.
Right on the money Steve.
Nimh battery packs of that voltage are made by a battery specialist in central England. I have three trailing cars and three packs of batteries. I still use the 27 MHz. Train Engineer - suits my simple to operate railroad - but still have track powered facilities, if needed, for a couple of Annies or visitors.
I imagine that the cheaper the battery, the fewer charges it may accept …my old gel cells seem to keep going, year after year…but they are old fashioned technology; are rather heavy, and take up a lot of space, compared with more recent types. I only use tender equipped, steam locomotives, without noise machines, so, have no problems fitting the lead acid gel cells into them. These cells seem to hold a charge for at least 6 months, or more, if not used during the Winter months.
So, anyone using those really inexpensive batteries; please tell us how many charges they will accept, and how long a charge lasts, if not used. This will give a better indication of their true value. You don’t get anything for nothing these days, and this information will help give a better indication of their true value.
I remember being able to purchase a rather good cordless drill, at around $50, but the battery would only last about a year. The replacement battery pack always seemed to cost more than the original drill with its battery, so the $50 was rather wasted, it seemed, and the battery never seemed to hold a charge for more than a week if you didn’t keep it on the charger. I could not figure why people bothered using them as battery packs for their model locomotives, other than the fact that they came with cheap chargers.
Meanwhile, my old fashioned gel cells keep “Marching along” powering my locomotives without fail. What am I doing wrong…!!
<<With my 14.8 volt, 2200 mAh batteries, I usually wear out before the battery does.>>
Well, uhm, uh, when they are charged. Right, Steve?
(Old Steve showed up at our last meeting with dead batteries… 
)
I have run the gamut from gel-cells to Li-ion. None are perfect.
I have had Nicads leak. I have had more Li-ions fail than any other chemistry. They usually last about a year and then go south. Including well known brands such as Tenergy and Cordless R’s. I use the latest and greatest smart chargers. The most reliable I have owned are Ni-hams. Some are still going strong after 6 years. As far as I’m concerned, I’ll stick with Li-ions because of their small size. I consider them throw-a-ways. Part of the expense of the hobby.
Fred Mills, BSc, BS, SD said:
So, anyone using those really inexpensive batteries; please tell us how many charges they will accept, and how long a charge lasts, if not used. This will give a better indication of their true value. You don’t get anything for nothing these days, and this information will help give a better indication of their true value.
Fred, if you’re referring to the 2200 mAh Li-Ion packs from All Electronics compared to the same packs bought at twice the price from All Battery, I’ve not noticed any difference in All-Electronics packs’ performance compared to my All-Battery packs. I’ve been keeping an eye on that this Summer, but so far, no differences have come to light. I’m getting the same 2 - 3 hours run time out of them, and they hold a charge sitting on the shelf between uses just fine.
In terms of charge cycles, that’s gonna be a while before I can determine that. My “old” packs have been in service for 5 years now, and are still as strong as when new. I couldn’t tell you how many cycles that might be, but if you accept that the “lifespan” of a battery is 500 cycles, mine are still toddlers.
Later,
K
Kevin Strong said:
In terms of charge cycles, that’s gonna be a while before I can determine that. My “old” packs have been in service for 5 years now, and are still as strong as when new. I couldn’t tell you how many cycles that might be, but if you accept that the “lifespan” of a battery is 500 cycles, mine are still toddlers.
Later,
K
Kevin,
Its improbable better yet its impossible for a five year old Li-Ion cells to remain as good as new… Matters not how many cycles have accumulated. The simple fact is you are unaware of the actual state of your batteries as compared to when you placed them in service. You may perceive there is no difference based on your usage, alas your assertion doesn’t hold water. There is massive amounts of empirical data as well as my own experience with Lithium recognizing 10% in the first year and 30% capacity degradation within 3-4 years. Lithium cell technology like others is a consumable, once you combine the chemicals the clock starts ticking. A five year life is plausible with minimal DOD and some fussing, maybe more. Three years or thereabouts with regular use is pretty typical… DOM or age of the cells when purchased would be valuable info. The industries suggestion of 500 cycles expected life should include a time consideration, yet the industry is oddly quiet therein. Not all Lithium cells are created with quality materials in meticulously clean environs.
Michael
Michael, I can certainly appreciate your perspective on Li-Ion technology. My criteria for determining the efficacy of a battery pack are very simple: how long does it let me run, and how does it hold a charge when not in use. Those things are pretty easy to gauge over time, at least in terms of averages.
On both of these fronts, my 5-year-old Li-Ion packs and fresh packs are very much on even footings. I typically get between 2 - 3 hours run time off of a charge, sometimes upwards of 4 under certain operating conditions. That doesn’t mean there aren’t subtle differences, but they are for all practical applications imperceptible. There’s nothing I can observe in my operations which would allow me to determine the age of the pack based solely on performance. Thus, my old packs are for my purposes “as good as new.” If I can’t tell the difference, they’re the same to me.
I’ve no reason to doubt your experience–it certainly runs in accord with that which I’ve read relative to the “typical” lifespans of Li-Ion batteries. What’s missing from that discussion is a definition of “typical.” We use 14.8 volt Li-Ion packs to power our TV cameras at work. They’re charged and discharged almost daily. At 3 years, they’re getting very long in the tooth and short on endurance. My train batteries are charged/discharged maybe once or twice a month. Definitely two extremes. If “typical” is somewhere in the middle, then it stands to reason that I can expect greater than “typical” life out of my batteries, which seems to be what I’m seeing when gauging performance.
I personally think the technology is too young and the uses too varied to ascribe a single “lifespan” to the technology with any kind of a broad brush. For every one who says “3 - 5 years,” there’s someone saying they’re getting 6 or 8 years, and someone else saying “mine died after 2.”
I’ll run mine until they stop holding a charge. Don’t know when that will happen, but compared to previous technologies, even if it were tomorrow, I’m well ahead of the curve.
Later,
K
That’s the difference between an engineer and a mathematician…
Place a male mathematician and a male engineer in a room, in opposite corners. At the same time, place a beautiful woman in the center of the room.
Tell the mathematician and the engineer that, at each sound of the bell, they may advance half the distance to the woman.
Typically what will happen is that the mathematician will remain seated while the engineer will joyfully advance half the remaining distance at each bell.
When asked why, the mathematician will reply, “It is obvious that the task is futile, as I will never reach the goal,” while the engineer will state, “Ah, yes, but I will get close enough for all practical purposes.”
Interesting discussion on LiIon.
Regular non-rechargeable li-ion batteries can have a shelf life of 10 years, due to low internal self discharge.
In practice, in my experience, li-ion rechargeables don’t quite have that long of a “shelf life”, but clearly have less internal self-discharge than other technologies (I’m leaving out some of the more esoteric newer technologies).
I’ve never heard what Michael refers to: " Lithium cell technology like others is a consumable, once you combine the chemicals the clock starts ticking" … I’d like to see references to that on RECHARGEABLE batteries. (please!)
But I also know that Michael has studied and tested batteries a lot, and the rest of his statements match my experience and my learning from others.
Greg
I usually review Battery University when I need to understand more about batteries. Perhaps there will be something here that will help.
However even after digesting what they have to say I am often still confused or at least undecided.
Pretty good information, but I have on occasion found errors. Also it’s a wealth of knowledge, but sometimes dated, some things are 5-6 years old.
Greg