Large Scale Central

Battery lesson

Electronics Power and Sound
#41
John Bouck said:
<> Dave, The P-5 has no input for "idling, standing sounds". Just the track (battery) power input. it relies on you sectioning off a piece of your battery pack, like I 'splained above. That's why it's cheaper. There are no inputs for reed switches, idling battery, etc. There isn't a speaker supplied with it either. Just a programming plug and an volume switch. It is supplied with inputs that hook to your receiver to ring the bell, blow the horn, instead of using the old track magnet reed switches.
John you are not correct re the P5. I have them here and the P5T. I have been working with Phoenix to make them plug in compatible with RCS. They are not designed for use with regular track powered locos.

The P5 does indeed have standing idling sounds when connected to the traction batteries.
You do not need to “secton off” part of your battery voltage to power it.
You simply connect the two green wires to the battery voltage. Up to 30 volts.
When you turn it on it idles.

There are two trigger inputs provided.
One is used for determining the speed of the diesel engine or chuff using a reed switch and magnet.
The other trigger can be used for a Whistle/Horn.
The Bell can be set up to work automatically.

When you plug in the P5T you can then use the Orange and Grey wires to reference the motor ouput to determine engine speed.
You wll also have 6 triggers for sound functions. With the soon to be released 6904 program you can trigger either high or low.

You haven’t said which brand of R/C you will be using and it does depend to some extent on how you will wire up the sound. If you will be triggering the sound with R/C then the P5 is ideal. If no R/C triggers then the P5 is not suitable and the P2K2 will be better. Be prepared for reduced range with the P2K2.

BTW. If you have high voltage and only run at half speed, the extra battery voltage not being used is burned off in the form of heat. It is much better to have just a volt or two above that required for the maximum speed you want to run at.

#42

Tony,
Thanks for clarifying the P-5 for me. I was going from memory after speaking to a Phoenix dealer. I guess he doesn’t know anything, as well as I! :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:
I have installed prolly a dozen 2K2’s, but no P5 yet. So I’m not a total greenhorn.
I have not decided on the “operating system” yet.
It is being boiled down to:
RCS and Airwire.
I will have both here to demo from club member’s equipment and I will put them both thru their paces. Then make my decision.

jb

#43
John Bouck said:
Tony, Thanks for clarifying the P-5 for me. I was going from memory after speaking to a Phoenix dealer. I guess he doesn't know anything, as well as I! :) :) :) I have installed prolly a dozen 2K2's, but no P5 yet. So I'm not a total greenhorn. I have not decided on the "operating system" yet. It is being boiled down to: RCS and Airwire. I will have both here to demo from club member's equipment and I will put them both thru their paces. Then make my decision.

jb


Ahhhhhh!!!
Now I see.
The Airwire does indeed need to partition the battery if you wish to use more than 14.4 volts. Not for the sound. Rather it is for the AirWire itself.
No need to partition the batteries at all with RCS. Any voltage from 12 volts up to 18 - 24 volts depending on which RCS.

The Airwire is a simple two wire connection with the P5T. You get the pleasure of programming and deciphering DCC commands from the handpiece.

The RCS is almost as simple with no DCC complications.

Be careful connecting any PWM controller to LGB sound equipped locos. Especially if they have a DCC decoder on board as well. They can become “confused”. Sometimes to the point of emitting “magic” smoke.

#44

On the P2K2 the track power voltage can be up to 24v (pins 1 & 2) but the battery voltage can only be up to 20v (plug in the middle of the board). If you are running 14.4v battery packs you can power both without having to split the voltage.

Ok, lets talk about what I want. I’m thinking of running an RS3 from a battery car. If I use a trackside TE with the case removed will I have heat problems in an enclosed car ie: box car. I’ll accept 14.4v. Just tell me what you recommend and I’ll find it…or buy it from you if you stock it. (TOC) You know my phone #.

#45

<<Tony,
Thanks for clarifying the P-5 for me. I was going from memory after speaking to a Phoenix dealer. I guess he doesn’t know anything, as well as I! >>

Tony,
I did the smart thing and downloaded the P-5 instruction manual, like I shoulda done in the first place!
Instead of making an ass out of myself! :slight_smile: :slight_smile:
I thought you could trust dealers who knew what they were talking about.
Guess not.

<<Ahhhhhh!!!
Now I see.
The Airwire does indeed need to partition the battery>>

That’s where all the confusion is coming from. I’ve studying the Airwire schematics, and they prefer a split power supply to the board.
I didn’t know RCS doesn’t need this application.

But we are drifting…
Lets get away from Pnix for now.

I wanted to learn about batteries.
<<BTW. If you have high voltage and only run at half speed, the extra battery voltage not being used is burned off in the form of heat. It is much better to have just a volt or two above that required for the maximum speed you want to run at.>>
Very good advice, Tony! See, I am learning as we go along! :slight_smile: :slight_smile:
So I’m going to test the track voltage on my lokos, each pulling the same amount of cars, on flat track.
(There aren’t any significant grades on either of my layouts).
With a track speed I am happy with. I like slow trains.
Then I will find a medium and report back with the voltage I need.
It may be that one or two need higher voltage to operate at my optimum speed. That’s ok. I’ll deal with that. The Uintah comes to mind. It usually takes more throttle to get it going.

jb

#46

Test results.
A nice leisurely speed.
All pulling the same consist of 6 cars.

2 USA S-4’s (Smoke off, lights on in lead unit only, no sound) 8.12 Volts
LGB Uintah (sound, lights on) 18.5 Volts. This one is a power hog like I thought it would be. It will require it’s own 20 Volt battery pack.
LGB Mogul (lights on) No sound. 10 Volts
LGB Sumpter Mallet. (sound and lights on) 14 Volts
LGB Forney (light on no sound) 8 Volts

So…With the exception of the two Mallets, everything else can be standardized to around 14 volts.

jb

#47
John Bouck said:
Test results. A nice leisurely speed. All pulling the same consist of 6 cars.

2 USA S-4’s (Smoke off, lights on in lead unit only, no sound) 8.12 Volts
LGB Uintah (sound, lights on) 18.5 Volts. This one is a power hog like I thought it would be. It will require it’s own 20 Volt battery pack.
LGB Mogul (lights on) No sound. 10 Volts
LGB Sumpter Mallet. (sound and lights on) 14 Volts
LGB Forney (light on no sound) 8 Volts

So…With the exception of the two Mallets, everything else can be standardized to around 14 volts.

jb


Nope.
I run Sumpters and UINTAHS all day long on 14.4V.
The trick is, feed battery voltage to the main input (where the track pickups go), whack the motor leads off the board plug, feed motor driver voltage just to the motors and bypass the voltage dropping network.

Do it all the time.

#48

Dave,
Yer killin me!

#49

If you’d look up my phone number in the GR ad and simply call, we could avoid 17 days of postings…

#50

Hi John.

What Dave is trying to tell you is, that, as they come, Uintahs, Mallets, Mikados and pretty well all LGB locos that have sound and/or DCC fitted all burn up the first 6 volts on linear DC to power lights and sound before the motor sees any voltage.
Dave, Don and I usually disconnect the LGB motors from the LGB electronics and power them straight from the 14.4 volt traction batteries. We then connect the 14.4 traction batteries to what were the LGB track pick ups so that the sound is always on when the batteries are switched on.
This is really only practical if you are installing the batteries and R/C inside the locos and not in a trail car.

As you wish to use a trail car, isolating the motor(s) gets really complicated so you will be stuck with having higher voltage batteries to cover the extra voltage needed by the lights and sound at idle. This is also going to mean another method of charging them as the less expensive lower voltage chargers cannot handle 18 + volts.

Additionally, although you can run DCC decoders on regular linear DC, using PWM is a NO NO. If any of the LGB locos have DCC decoders and sound DO NOT power them with a PWM controller. Doing so will confuse the DCC decoders and may even damage them.
The alternative is to use a filtered linear DC battery R/C in the trail car. The only ones made that I know of are my Titan series and the Crest TE set to Linear mode.

One other thing.
I would be cautious using the lighting connectors on the LGB tenders to power a loco hauling a heavy train. They are designed only for lighting and cannot handle very much current at all.

#51
Curmudgeon said:
If you'd look up my phone number in the GR ad and simply call, we could avoid 17 days of postings.......
And let our brethren here on LSC miss all the phun? At least I ain't talking about LGMearklin or whatever it is...Yawn...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

<< This is also going to mean another method of charging them as the less expensive lower voltage chargers cannot handle 18 + volts.>>

Egzactly, Tony.
Two packs of 9 volts. Two chargers. What’s wrong with that?

jb

#52

Thanks, Tony, for translating.
TOCish is harder to translate than Australian. :slight_smile: :slight_smile:
Everything you have said makes sense.
If Dave can rip guts out of a loco, I can too.
I do have a few of those LGB’s with factory MTS decoders in them. They’ll be in the parts box before long.
I’ll have Dave tell me which wires I need that are coming up from the motor’s, the rest will be scrap.
I’ll change out the headlight to match the battery voltage, and disable the cab light and firebox light.
Smoke too. I hardly ever smoke my locos, so it ain’t no loss. Sound is more important, even though I shut that off from time to time, just for peace and quiet.
Thanks for the input on batteries so far…

TOG

#53
John Bouck said:
Thanks, Tony, for translating. TOCish is harder to translate than Australian. :) :) Everything you have said makes sense. If Dave can rip guts out of a loco, I can too. I do have a few of those LGB's with factory MTS decoders in them. They'll be in the parts box before long. I'll have Dave tell me which wires I need that are coming up from the motor's, the rest will be scrap. I'll change out the headlight to match the battery voltage, and disable the cab light and firebox light. Smoke too. I hardly ever smoke my locos, so it ain't no loss. Sound is more important, even though I shut that off from time to time, just for peace and quiet. Thanks for the input on batteries so far......

TOG


Whoa now!!!
This ain’t no pi****g contest about who can and cannot rip out the most stuff from the LGB locos.
If you are still planning on a trail car for the LGB locos there is no need to remove anything. Except maybe the DCC decoder. In which case you remove it and set the 4 little dip switches (in the Mikado anyway) to ON.
Just buy the right sort of linear controller and leave everything alone. The loco will run as before and the sounds will work as before. Controlling the onboard sounds in a loco by R/C from a trailing car can get really complicated.

You won’t need 18 + volts of batteries if you want to install all the stuff in the tender.
14.4 volts will be plenty.
You will likely need a some extra loco to tender connectors.

You need to decide which way you want to go with the LGB locos before you buy any equipment.

Take my advice and call Dave or Don. It is way easier to explain the options by chatting instead of writing it all down.

#54

And, if you simply apply switched DC battery voltage to the former track inputs, the boards can stay there, flicker, sound, and all.
The motor driver output goes to the motors, bypassing the rigamarole.

Easy.

#55
Curmudgeon said:
That's the one!

Mario-
Still trying to get word out from the seemingly clueless on your stuff.
On your 7.2V, originally, the BigHaulers were 6V of dry cells.
A fully-charged 7.2V is about 8.6V, so theoretically, it should have been a rocketship.


Dave & Mario,

A Big Hauler RC set (picked up at a second hand shop) was my entry into large scale almost two years ago. The loco ran off of 6 D cells for 9 volts of juice. It chugged along just fine on those and the D cells provided much needed weight. I also tried using a 1.4 Ah subC NiCad pack that was putting out over 8 volts. It never had quite the same kick as the D cells and was also quite a bit lighter.

-Brian

#56

I have six locos; all of them have the space to use gel cells. They have been in service more than 6 years each, and are still running great.
I use chargers designed especially for gel cells. I use a six, and a twelve volt cell in each loco, and charge the two with seperate chargers.

I just pulled a loco that hadn’t been charged for over a year, and to my amazement, it still had a full charge. It is now in service again, and working well.

I don’t do smoke or noise; just a headlight that is connected along with the motor to the receiver. KISS is my method…

We operate and have fun, using RailOps.

YES, I’ll admit to being a “BATTERY BASTARD”…!!!

#57

Thank you for your input, Phather Phred!
Somehow this thread ended up with gutting and bypassing, etc, prolly my fault. with a little Pnix thrown in for good measure. :slight_smile: :slight_smile:
Every operator has his own favorite means of battery power, for their own usage.
I like the idea of gel-cells. Old school. Very KISS.
That’s the reason I decided in the first place to go 100% RC/bat on my out door layout. KISS.
I have the means to buy 10 chargers, if I want to.
And lots of batteries.
Which ones was the question.
Gel Cells are square in shape for putting in tenders and cars. Relatively cheap.
Ni-cads are a good choice, also.
The others just increase the cost.

For a short time I worked for an alarm/security company. We would go around and install systems in banks, stores, offices, etc.
The back-up power were Gel-Cells. Every year, they would be replaced, whether they needed it or not.
When tested, they were still at full power. (Albeit prolly kept at full charge by some sort of trickle system built in to the alarm box.)
My own home security system is backed up by gel cell. I’ve replaced the battery three times in the last 22 years.
So there is something to say about gel cells.
How often they can recycle is moot, 'cause they are cheap.

I’ve had nothing but bad luck with Ni-cad, but that’s prolly my own fault for not keeping them serviced properly.
And I have no experience with the high tech new stuff.
That was the reason for the thread on this forum.

TOG