Gentlemen of the jury,
The more I study batteries, the more confused I get. (Easily done at my age! 
)
What kind of batteries do you use?
Gel-cel (Lead acid)
Ni-cad
Li-Ion
Ni-MH
Other
Give me a lesson, please!
Why you use what you use.
This is a poll, sort of.
Thanks
TOG
The only battery powered locomotive I currently have uses 2 12v deep cycle batteries. But I don’t think they will fit in your locomotives. 
I am no expert on modern batteries and I have (almost) no intention of using battery power on my layout, but if I did I would strongly favour lead-acid. They seem to be the most robust. Think about how hard it is to hurt a car battery. The only caution I know of is that they don’t like being left in a discharged state for long periods.
I’ve had good service from Lithium batteries, but they were low power camera batteries.
I’d avoid Ni-Cads like the plague. Even the newer ones that claim not to have a memory come with a set of recharging instructions that I find … tedious.
I expect Tony will have some more specific recommendations. He is very experienced in these matters.
Hello John.
I can give you an opinion based upon my 20+ years experience handling most types of batteries and Large Scale locos.
I have no vested interest in any of the chemistries.
I do make a NiCd trickle charger but I don’t really care if sell any more of them or not.
NiCd.
I use and recommend NiCd batteries only where a relatively high current draw is required. Specifically Sub C cells made up into packs of a suitable voltage.
Whilst I acknowledge NiCd cells can develop a memory if ram charged when only partially discharged, my experience is that the momory effect does NOT happen provided;
a) you charge them at the recommended 10% rate for the recommended period of time. It has been my experience they can be left on the 10% charger for a extended period without any ill effects.
b) you use a proper peak detection charger if you want to fast charge them.
Method A ensures the longest life possible as in the number of recharges possible. Typically NiCd batteries will give approximately 1,000 recharges.
If they are good quality they will also recover even after being let run flat and stay there.
Just this weekend I charged up a 12 volt pack of Medical grade Sub C NiCd’s that had been left discharged and idle for over 2 years.
They do have a downside. NiCd batteries use a very toxic chemical in their construction and MUST be disposed of correctly when the have expired. Cadmium is dangerous.
NiMh
These have a greater energy density than NiCd but only have half the life span of NiCd. 500 recharges versus 1,000
The big downside to me is they self discharge rapidly such that some packs will be flat 2 weeks after charging.
Most people notice this in digital cameras. Very annoying. A new type of hybrid cell to overcome this is now available in AA size. See below.
Like NiCd cells, NiMh can be made up into pretty well any voltage and shape you can imagine.
They are not toxic.
Cell sizes.
I can only speak from experience of SubC, AA and AAA size batteries. I know a whole variety of sizes are available, but not here in Australia. Well, not easily and certainly not cheaply.
Sub C and AA/AAA cells are constructed differently. Better quality Sub C are designed to handle high charge/discharge currents. AA/AAA cells are not. AA in particular are rated at only 500 ma max current draw. Any more put in or taken out will likely severely reduce their life span. I know. At my cost I have had to replace AA battery packs that did not last under warranty.
Sanyo and Panasonic have a new hybrid chemistry available in AA size that combines NiMh and Alkaline to make a batery that is guaranteed to hold 85% charge for 1 year. Sanyo cells are branded ENELOOP.
However, they are still limited by the amount of current in and out. Even though big in capacity that capacity is designed for a low draw for a long time - v - high draw for a short time. They are brilliant in my digital camera.
I have supplied some packs with loco installations with, so far, excellent results.
Lead Acid Gel Cells
I have never had any success with gel cells. Others swear by them. I just swear at them.
They only come in two voltages, 6v and 12v. They are big, heavy and awkward to fit in small locos. They drop their voltage as they discharge and will die rapidly if not kept charged.
However, they are cheap. At least the low quality ones are.
The high quality Deep discharge types are not cheap.
Even when looked after, car batteries last only a couple of years unless you buy the better quality and much more expenisve types.
Li-Poly/Li-Ion
I have no personal experience with either of these other than the batteries in my cell phones, which have been excellent.
My last digital camera ate these batteries. 18 months and they were dead, no matter what.
There have been many instances of these blowing up and catching fire in hobby use. Even when they have the built in circuitry to regulate their use.
Crest sell a 21.5 volt pack that is reportedly safe to use.
Personally I would still be wary of them for now.
Taking into account value for money and the size/capacity ratio, Sub C Ni-Cd cells win hands down for our Large Scale use.
If space is a problem and the loco has alow current draw, I can recommend Sanyo ENELOOPP AA cells.
I hope that information is of use.
Jeez Tony, perhaps your definition of “looked after” is very different to mine when it comes to car batteries. Maybe you should stop carrying out regular maintenance with a chainsaw and a sledge hammer When I lived in Australia the worst I ever got was 3 years, and I always used tap water to top them up. Nowadays (the last 15 years) I get a minimum of 5 years use, and I always buy the cheapest I can get.
As for lithium camera batteries, I haven’t had one last less than 4 years.
I’m glad to hear the memory problem with Ni-Cads can be overcome.
Kevin, I can’t argue with your experience with car batteries.
I just tell it like it is. I find the cheapest ones here crap out in 2-3 years. I guess it must be because I only ever use distilled water to top them up. Even though Melbourne is supposed to have the purest tap water in the World.
I can only repeat, based on my 20+ years with battery R/C, I would not recommend lead acid gel cells for Large Scale locos for the reasons I gave. Even though I know others have had good success with them.
TonyWalsham said:
Kevin, I can't argue with your experience with car batteries. I just tell it like it is. I find the cheapest ones here crap out in 2-3 years. I guess it must be because I only ever use distilled water to top them up. Even though Melbourne is supposed to have the purest tap water in the World.I can only repeat, based on my 20+ years with battery R/C, I would not recommend lead acid gel cells for Large Scale locos for the reasons I gave. Even though I know others have had good success with them.
I can’t speak to the use of gel cells in trains, but I have one in my electric weed wacker. I rarely use it, being basically lazy, and leave it on the charger when not in use. It is over 2 years old and ran fine a few weeks ago when I got the urge to tidy the front steps. I would have thought it would be ideal for train use. I have no idea why you’re having trouble with them. Maybe they’re better suited to heavy drain than the relatively light load of a model train.
Kevin Morris said:Perhaps you should reread my reasons for not recommending them for LS trains.
BIG SNIP I can't speak to the use of gel cells in trains, but I have one in my electric weed wacker. I rarely use it, being basically lazy, and leave it on the charger when not in use. It is over 2 years old and ran fine a few weeks ago when I got the urge to tidy the front steps. I would have thought it would be ideal for train use. I have no idea why you're having trouble with them. Maybe they're better suited to heavy drain than the relatively light load of a model train.
TonyWalsham said:You might care to ask the track powered Sierra sound users how reliable are the Gel Cell batteries Sierra uses. I know of dozens that have had to be replaced. Many probably because of neglect. Some have just failed.
They only come in two voltages, 6v and 12v. They are big, heavy and awkward to fit in small locos. They drop their voltage as they discharge and will die rapidly if not kept charged.
As an aside, Jennifer has a plug in NiCd battery pack come torch that is left plugged into the mains power when not in use. It works flawlessly any time it is needed. It is about 25 years old. Same battery, same bulb.
I personally have had Sub C NiCd batteries used in LS trains last 10 years. Some 15 years.
I have seen lead-acid technology sulphate.
I have seen lead-acids with full voltage and zero current.
The adage “power for ound you cannot beat ni-cads” is bsaically that same now, except you have to factor in the NiMH and the cost for good ones.
Everybody I know has removed lead-acids from train service.
BTW, on my 6V wet cells in my old Fords, I generally replace them at 8 years just to be safe, but I can water them when needed, and positive grounding does not get the terminal corrosion negative grounding does.
Interesting that someone who doesn’t use batteries in their locomotives would recommend a battery type.
I agree on the points raised by Tony and Dave. I do have a few things to add.
Nicads are better at high current applications (already stated) and deeper discharge (although very deep discharge will cause cell voltage reversal).
Nickel metal hydrides are disappointing in my experience. They have less life, and are more sensitive to overcharging and abuse.
Lithium Ions are not good at high current situations. I know you can get them in power tools, but they only last 300-400 cycles. Some lithiums in the right applications and the right current drains last a long time. But I have poor experience with them in cell phones (new battery in less than a year), and they are very finicky about charging. They also can catch on fire (explosively in some cases) if you even put a small ding in the cells. I do use them when space or weight is a great factor.
Gell cells work well in standby applications when kept on a proper float charge, and are exercised on a regular basis. They do not normally last a long time though, it’s easy for the electrolyte to dry out, since it is a gel not a liquid, so very little liquid loss ruins the battery (usually from overcharging and the resultant heat). They are indeed cheap, but bulky and heavy. They do not have a great self-discharge rate.
Regards, Greg
My engineering manuals state that NiMH have half the recharge cycles of NiCads.
I have more than proven that.
You can get more charge density in a given space, but at higher cost and more frequent replacement.
Gentle men (Except for Warren– )
Thank you for the import.
I ain’t inerrested in car batteries.
If I make any sense of the replies,
The pros are saying use Ni-cads for trains.
TOC–What kind of batteries do you use on your trains? You didn’t say, unless I missed it.
I want the type, the size and the mah.
Tony–Same as above.
I guess you two are the only members of this group who use batt/rc.
thanx,
jb
Tony,
I researched the Sanyo a little:
http://www.eneloopusa.com/eneloop.html
Comes in AA or AAA only.
Sure would take a bunch to make my two packs per tender or battery car.
Rather than getting someone to tape me up a pack of those, what would you think of a battery holder like this:
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/BH-361/970/BATTERY_HOLDER_FOR_6_AA_CELLS_.html
jb
Curmudgeon said:Yes it is interesting. It's called participation in the discussion and an attempt to get the topic moving. You'll hopefully note that I made no claims as to expertise in trains batteries, but I do have a certain amount of experience in batteries in general as well as electrical circuitry. I guess a few years of being an electrician can do that to a person. Perhaps you'll also recall that I immediately suggested that Tony's input would be valuable.
Interesting that someone who doesn't use batteries in their locomotives would recommend a battery type.
This is a very informative thread. I haven’t ruled out the use of battery power in some aspects of my future layout. However, the batteries would undergo and extremely regular cycle of charge and discharge: something I’ve read that is supposed to be detrimental for NiCads.
<>
Kevin,
I agree!
There a lots of us out there that are a little apprehensive about using battery power. I have made the decision to change over to this type of operation.
I would like to find out all I can about batteries.
I was under the assumption that no questions are stupid ones on this forum.
Whilst purchasing decals from Stan Cedarleaf, I probed him about batteries. (He operates Batt/rc)
He uses gel cells because he can get them cheap or free.
However, he recommended these for me:
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2106
I am not going to discredit anyone’s advise here, but load all the info into my feeble brain.
But, on the other hand, I want no flaming in the replies, either!
jb
Two locomotives converted so far: Both are 100% self contained using NiCad batteries with RCS radio control. One has real-time controlled Sierra sound. Both have directional lighting and firebox flicker. The first locomotive is a 36 ton Shay and the second is a Centennial 2-6-0 (with sound). Next conversion will be my Climax.
The batteries are 14.4V sub-C packs with 1800 & 2000 MAh. They would provide 2-3 Hours of continuous runtime. Since my operations are designed to represent a shortline utility and construction railroad, there is no round and round running, and the batteries always last longer than the operators! I use and RCS charger + Radio Shack wall wart.
Both conversions / installs were done by TOC. The Shay in 1999 and the 2-6-0 around 3 or 4 years ago. I replaced the original 1999 batteries in the Shay around two years ago, so they had 6 years life with average treatment. I plan to have Dave carefully duplicate the existing setups in future conversions.
Also, the RCS system allows the charging jack (on the back of the tender or tank) to be used as an alternate battery input from a battery car. This means operations can be extended indefinitely before recharging. I haven’t found it necessary, but the capability is there.
Happy RRing,
Jerry Bowers
Can’t get any simpler than this: MaHa charger. Two of these. prolly the best AA charger out there.
A bunch of these. 2700MaH each NiMh
And two of these in each battery car:
Dave, Tony. Watchya think? TOG
A) I would not use AA or smaller without finding out from the manufacturer the max in and out currents.
This is genrally 1/2A.
NOT good.In NiCads I use 2AH unless size prohibits, then 1200’s and even 700’s.
B) All made up packs, or loose cells with solder tabs spot-welded on.
In NiMH, I use 2100 MAH 4/5A (full “A”) or 4.5AH 7/5A
NiMH are more money, last half as long as nicads, but higher charge density.
C) I would never, and I repeat ever, use loose cells in a holder and a charger like shown.
Mine are semi-permanently installed, charge from one point with MAHA chargers.
John:
I’m certainly not at Dave or Tony’s knowledge level, but I do have a Delton railbus that runs on self-contained batteries + R/C. I originally wired it with clip in style battery holders, but found there were always contact problems. They either corroded or overheated, even in the light amperage draw service of the railbus. Once they had corroded a bit, they easily overheated due to the plating being destroyed or oxidized. It seemed that I spent as much time cleaning the battery and holder contacts as running it.
After a couple of years, I built a battery pack using tabbed cells, and the problems were completely solved. I do have a power disconnect that is used to charge it, but that pin and socket assembly is a full insertion type that is designed for power supplies. The only reason I didn’t list the rail bus in the above post is that it looks pretty small along side my 1:20 stuff, so is rarely used.
Happy RRing,
Jerry
<<C) I would never, and I repeat ever, use loose cells in a holder and a charger like shown.>>
Why not?
'splain your reasoning please. Never mind, Jerry splained it.
<>
What Maha charger? Dave, I can get squeeze orange juice out of an apple easier than getting specifics from you!
Details, Man, details.
Maybe I’ll just buy all the stuff I need from you and move on.
TOG