Large Scale Central

Barter decorum at train shows

General Discussion
#1

I attended the Amherst Railway Society show in Springfield MA. yesterday and got my fill of trains, crowds and picked up a few deals. However I did notice something which was disturbing and if I was a dealer would make me really upset to the point of not bothering to go to shows anymore and that was the barter. I think we all have a pretty good grasp on what our trains are worth and some of the offers I overheard as I made the rounds were dispictable and low, border line why not just steal it instead of insulting the dealer. disclaimer (Don’t actually steal anything)

Today everyone wants a deal but come on, the dealer needs to make a living and make money to make it worth his time to go to a show. You have to be fair about it. I heard one guy offer $10 on a $28 item ? Funny thing was the item was actually only 8 but the “$ sign” looked like a 2 . Then the buyer said OH I’ll give you $5 then. The dealer then said I should have said yes to the $10. I didn’t stick around to see how it ended. Another case a guy buying a box of trains and the dealer stuck firm to his price of $100. I did a quick tally of the contents $150. The guy kept trying to low ball, I even jumped in and pointed out that 2 items were $50 all day long on Ebay and a few more were another $50 and the rest was bonus. He did eventually pay the $100 and got a deal and I think he knew it.

You can say the dealer can always say NO but it is wearing.

Being in sales for 12 years now, first selling cars now with my own real estate company it still shocks me with what people try and pull. Fair is fair and I have learned that everyone is happier when there is a little meat left on the bone. Dealers need to make deals to survive but being insulted by low offers at every turn must take its toll and might even have some throw their hands up and quit the shows.

So in the future be sure to respect the dealer and offer them a fair price for their wares.

They too need to make a living.

#2

Todd, IMHO you are beng too sensitive. As you note - the dealer can always say “no”.

#3

“Hey Mista! Ah’ll give ya a dollah, fo’ it!” as he waves a $300 item. Yes, it happened.

After dickering for 15 minutes, and coming to a price, “Great! If I don’t find what I’m looking for, I’ll be back!” Yes, that too.

I knew a guy who took the following sign to train shows, and flea markets, “I found it. I paid for it. I cleaned it up. I brought it here and paid for the space. So now you want me to take WHAT for it?” He said it really didn’t do much good because many folks are just too stupid to read it, and even when they did, assumed it didn’t apply to them.

Just because the dealer CAN “always say no”, doesn’t excuse acting like a turd. Sure there will always be many broke folks and narcssistic obliviots, but there’s really NO excuse for “normal people” being rudely cheap. When the small vendors go out of business, where are you gonna get your stuff? Make buddies with a “rob the widow” estate dealer?

#4

If I may…

One of the joys that we miss, here in North America, is the barter.

While deployed in the Navy, I learned how to barter. The first thing I learned is that the dealer’s asking price is 'way over inflated. The nice thing about that is that both of us know that. “Oh, Mama-san make joke,” was my usual response. I would then come back with a low ball offer, usually about half of what she (he) was asking. That would cause the dealer to respond by giving me a glare that could take rust off a bumper, usually a smile in his eyes as (s)he knew he had a serious customer, followed by a loud sucking noise as the dealer inhaled between his teeth, then we got down to the business of the haggle.

Once, mama-san and I were separated by a nickle. Neither of us would budge. She had her daughter bring out her finest tea service, and we had a wonderful hour discussing everything but the business at hand. Finally, one of the young Marines that I was with said, “Here’s your nickle, Doc, can we go now?” She gave him a glare that would have melted the bumper and pushed his nickle back at him. We finally decided to split the difference. The point is, I would have missed that wonderful hour if I had not participated in the haggle.

If you, as the dealer, do not want to haggle, or do not know how to haggle, (it is a learned art), then just post a sign that says all prices are firm, and price everything at a fair price. On the other hand, as a prospective buyer, do not enter into a haggle, unless you are serious.

#5

Funny story Steve. you are right that haggling is a learned art.
I have a friend who owns a gift/ specialty shop in a local town and the things he has to deal with on a daily basis from the tourists. “I can get this cheaper at the Xmas tree shop” Yeah if you want it made in China and not by a local artist. He has actually had people ask him for a piece of paper and pen so they can write down the name or website on the product so they can go home and google it to try and get it cheaper. ??
I heard from another dealer at his store a guy beat him up and down over the price of a train set then refused to buy it when the dealer rang him up and tax was charged! The guy stormed out!
At the show I came across a boxed LGB B+M boxcar with a price of $40 and in my mind already a bargain. I was also looking at 2 engines they had and the first thing out of the dealers mouth “there is wiggle room in those” talk about dropping your pants! I pointed to the boxcar and said “is there wiggle room in that one?” “Yes how’s $35?” I suppose I could have haggled from $30 but I thought $35 was a very fair price and bought it. She was happy, I’m happy. A good deal. That’s what I’m talking about.
There was a booth with a sign with a similar message to the one MIK posted and it included at the end PLUS MASS. SALES TAX OF 6.25% They had some nice stuff at bargain prices but I still heard people trying to get a steal. The dealer stood firm. I went back later on and alot of his shelves were empty. Good for him.
To the cheap skates, don’t be jerks. To the dealers, be strong there are good buyers out there.

#6

Steve Featherkile said:

The first thing I learned is that the dealer’s asking price is 'way over inflated.

Um no it often isn’t. Maybe in Outer BF, but not here. 1. If he has a brick and mortar store, he doesn’t usually mark it up for a show. And his overhead didn’t suddenly dissappear. 2. The pressure (I won’t call it competition) of ebay has actually driven prices LOWER on most used items. 3. A LOT of manufacturers have squeezed the margins on their dealers to stay in business, (One place I had a"wholesale" discount was a whopping 10%… take 3% away for a credit card transaction, and you’re making bupkis unless you sell a LOT of them) 4. And maybe, just maybe the guy is an honest fellow hobbyist and already priced it reasonably.

Don’t simply ASSume a dealer has a 300% markup on something, or is out to fleece you because most times he just isn’t. How would YOU like it if your boss tried to “bargain” you down on your wages every time you went in to work? Sure, if you don’t like the posted price, you can make a reasonable offer, but please don’t waste the dealer’s time just because you want to be a cheap SoB…

#7

The best deals are where both participants walk away, feeling like bandits.

My ship was tied to the pier in Mombasa, Kenya. We had Cinderella Liberty, and were expected to be back aboard the ship by midnight. At 2330, on the last night, I was walking down the pier, listening to my Panasonic “Walkman” knockoff. There was a woodcarver, packing his up his carvings, getting ready to go home. He had his son with him, about 15 or so years old. There was one carving that caught my eye, a carving in ebony of a rhino, with the skin folds carved in. Usually, those carvings were done with smooth skin, but this was done with a lot of love, and respect for the animal. It was gorgeous. I wanted it, but thought that I could not afford it, as I had emptied my wallet ashore.

The young lad wanted my “Walkman.” Badly. With gestures, the trade was made. I got the carving, and the lad got the Walkman/AM-FM Radio. Plus a Beatles tape that I had been listening to. He was beyond happy. His father had tears in his eyes that he could give his son such a gift. I was happy that I could get such a beautiful wood carving. I’m looking at it now.

We both walked away from the deal feeling like bandits. Who got the better of the deal?

Does it matter?

I touch the skin of the rhino and feel the love that the wood carver poured into it. I recently had it appraised, and now my wife allows it to be displayed in our home. Perhaps I won. On the other hand, the wood carver was able to give his son something that he otherwise would not have been able to give him. Perhaps he won.

Perhaps we both won.

#8

Nice memory Steve you were both bandits and you both won! that is great.
I wonder if that kid still has the walkman or just a fond memory of this nutty sailor his Dad took advantage of?

#9

Mik said:

After dickering for 15 minutes, and coming to a price, “Great! If I don’t find what I’m looking for, I’ll be back!”

When I used to be a “seller”, I ran into that a lot. I had a small percentage come back. When they did, the item was back to original price, this time firm. One guy was such an a-hole, I told him the item was no longer for sale.

It wasn’t my day job, so I could afford to teach a lesson or two.

Ralph

#10

Ralph Berg said:

…It wasn’t my day job, so I could afford to teach a lesson or two.

It WAS my day job, but that didn’t always stop me :wink:

At one show I had a guy come up, jab his finger at a $400 (about $350 wholesale) piece, and snarl, “I know where I can get THOSE for $100”… I just picked up my checkbook from out of the cash box, flipped it open and replied with a smile, “Good! I’ll take three.”

His response isn’t printable on a family forum, then he stomped off… I thought the guy next to me was going to die laughing.

Then there were the guys who’d make a nasty comment that “so-and-so” (usually an online big volume place) had an irem for $x less. I’d look up and down the aisle, and then ask them “Are they here?”

I really tried to be a “people person”, people ruined it

#11

Mik said:

Ralph Berg said:

…It wasn’t my day job, so I could afford to teach a lesson or two.

It WAS my day job, but that didn’t always stop me :wink:

At one show I had a guy come up, jab his finger at a $400 (about $350 wholesale) piece, and snarl, “I know where I can get THOSE for $100”… I just picked up my checkbook from out of the cash box, flipped it open and replied with a smile, “Good! I’ll take three.”

His response isn’t printable on a family forum, then he stomped off… I thought the guy next to me was going to die laughing.

Then there were the guys who’d make a nasty comment that “so-and-so” (usually an online big volume place) had an irem for $x less. I’d look up and down the aisle, and then ask them “Are they here?”

I really tried to be a “people person”, people ruined it

During that same Mombasa port visit, I learned a valuable lesson. Kodachrome 64 was going for about $3.50 US for a box of 36 exposure in 35mm film, in Mombasa. I took a “Safari” out somewhere in the hinterland to view the local fauna, and during the overnight stay, I realized that I was short some film. I went to the store attached to the hotel where we were staying to purchase some more film, only to discover that they were charging over $10.00 US for the same box.

I asked the sales clerk why he was charging so much, since the same film was only $3.50, about 50 miles away in Mombasa. His answer was “So, go to Mombasa and buy it there.”

Oh. Lesson learned. I shut up and bought the film.

#12

I have found train shows to be a lot like ebay, someone asking $50.00 for $5.00 worth of junk, and someone selling gold for 5 cents on the dollar. There are bad dealers and bad customers…It’s nice when the two pair up.

#13

I’ve sold at swap meets, and of course I’ve been a buyer many times. I dislike haggling and have rarely ever engaged in it. Frankly, I don’t “get it”. The price is the price.

If I’m a customer and don’t like the price, I don’t buy. If I’m selling, I set what think I should get for it, and if it doesn’t sell, then I’ll adjust the price, but I’m not going to give Joe Blow a special deal just because he asks for one.

BTW, you’ll notice that the people who say you’re charging too much and should lower the price just for them, will never offer to pay more to the guy who’s not charging enough.

#14

One thing to keep in mind, its not always an attempt to insult with a lowball offer. When I was building my new computer, I was drooling over the Silverstone Temjin TJ07B-W case. (Current price on Newegg: 369+32sh) Found one on ebay, openning bid 200 plus 35? in shipping. As I had my second son due in a few months, 400 on the empty chassis was out of the question. With less than 24hrs to go and no bids, I emailed the seller and explained my situation, offering 175 including S&H. I appologized for the low offer, and admitted that I realized it was low, but was all I could afford. I wouldn’t even have made the offer except he mentioned in the auction that he was selling because he got laid-off. I told him that I wasn’t trying to snowball him, but that 175 was all I could afford. If it was too low to accept, I understood and no insult was intended. He replied that he understood my situation and really was hoping that one of the many watching the auction would bid at the last moment. Don’t you know, 20min after the auction ended, I got an email asking if I was still interested in the case at my original offer. I replied that I was, but that I wanted to make certain he was okay with the sale, after all I felt bad about the low offer. He got some money for about 15 in scrap metal, and I got a screaming case which now houses my hex-core chip with 16gb of ram, etc. The point is, I wasn’t trying to cheat him, but it seemed he was a “motivated” seller of an item I wanted, but couldn’t afford at his price. Still love the case, but still feel a bit bad on the low price.

#15

A low offer never bothered me. It’s haggling the price down, then walking away.

Don’t make an offer unless you’ll stand behind it!

I regularly make what some consider a low offer on a common GRR item. Nobody uses them anymore.

I’ve bought dozens at my offer price and lower. I’ve had people give them to me.

But yet I’ve had a number of people get mad at my offer of $15 on something they thought was worth $25.

It’s only worth what someone will pay for it :wink:

Ralph

#16

I agree with Mr. Berg.
I have often run across GRR stuff that some would say is very valuable,worth a great deal…
BUT…
The trick is finding the guy that will PAY you for it!!

#17

I am sure I am the guy who offered $100 for a box of trains that the seller wanted $150. What Todd did not see was the caboose had a broken truck, the Rogers apparently had a broken gear as the seller admitted it skipped but it was the traction wheel. There were no traction wheels on wheels. The transformer had a broken plug. Just as buyers try to bargin down, Often sellers try to pass of defective goods to an unsuspecting buyer. Bargining is to get an item at a price that is fair to both the seller and buyer.

BTW, yes I did return as the seller requested and purchased the trains. I will fix them up to use at a handicap facility we maintain a train set up or the residents.

#18

Not you Tom it was a box of track and not a Rogers. pricing trains is alot easier than real estate. if a house sits to long it is usually over priced if it goes too quickly then the seller thinks it was under priced, maybe but actually it was priced right.
A real buyer will tell you how much something is really worth.
On the flip side it is funny to see common GRR things on Ebay listed for alot of money then it doesn’t sell. I wonder if it dawns on the seller that the item just isn’t worth what he is asking?

#19

Todd Haskins said:
I wonder if it dawns on the seller that the item just isn’t worth what he is asking?

Yes it dawns on them, but they are waiting for that ONE that is born every minute. :wink:

#20

Todd and Joe.
Yes, they know the price is rediculous. How many ‘buy it now’ prices are list when direct internet prices are 40%lower? It cost nothing to keep relisting hoping manufacturers supplies will be depleted and someone will offer the price.

What bothers me are sites like ‘The Favorite Spot’ that have their own robo bidding against ligit bidders to dive the price up to what they want for the item. I have seen the same items relisted with them 7-8 times after ‘no reserve bidding’. Although against Ebay policy, all they say is they will warn the seller! This is getting to be more widespread even with occasional sellers