Large Scale Central

Ballast?

Here is my $0.02.

I worked as an engineer in a rock quarry company. So here is what I can tell you about stability.

First, the guys that suggested the material you use have flat sides is exactly right. The flatsided rock locks against each other better. Rounded-sided rock will just roll past each other.

Second, the “dirt” or as we like to call it, fines. Is also a desired trait to your sub-base. This is because the fines settle in-between the larger rock and prevent the rock from moving around. Sand is a very subjective term and many here have already touched on the variation of the term “sand”. One word of caution is to not buy “sand” that is washed, like playground sand. This usually has the fines washed out of it so it does not “lock” into place.

Third, the suggestion to go to a local rock quarry is correct. We used to bag some of our product and sell it to the hardware stores. The price difference was a lot higher for bagged product. You will probably save 50-75% if you go to a local quarry and get a load.

Finally, the construction of your roadbed. Start with a solid sub-bed. Use a gravel or something that has a 1/4" and smaller, along with the fines in it. Lay this down and pack it down. I suggest 3-4" deep if you can. This layer is for the stability of your roadbed. Also, if its packed well, water will not soak in as much and thus cause frost heave. Then lay you track down. Dress up the top to look more like ballast with a small clean rock, with no or very little fines. The top layer is just for show. The sub-bed is where your stability and strength are.

Finally, a suggestion for the type of material for the sub-bed. I prefer limestone, although most think it is a pourous rock, it works very well at repelling water when packed in properly. Some granite material is very pourous, be careful what you use. The less pourous, the better to prevent water soaking into the base.

I lied, one more thing. If your doing a floating roadbed, expect to have to do maintenance. You will have to occationally replace the top layer of rock. Hopefully, if you’ve packed the sub-bed well enough you wont have to mess with it much. Make drainage ditches and make sure to install areas where the water can drain under your roadbed. Dont let it pool up next to the roadbed or you’ll have a washout. Think like the “big guys” they have many culverts and stuff installed to control water. You have to do the same. Good luck.

Welcome Jake - Great advice!

Welcome Jake

Welcome aboard Jake. Sound advice

We looked everywhere for black cinder like ballast. Couldn’t find anything even close to what looked right at any of the quarry/rock places in our area. But then I had an idea to use the real stuff. So, after getting permission, I was able to fill a bucket of Durango & Silverton ash from their ash pit. It looked great, but washed away after one winter. Probably not a viable option for most though, but it did look nice for one season. Here’s a photo that sort of shows the cinder “ballast”:

(http://imageshack.us/m/710/1441/rockwood.jpg)

I thought about reballasting every summer, but we simply get too much snow for any loose ballast to stay around and not get washed into the soil as it melts. So it seemed like too much work to reballast every summer. In the photo below, the loco is where that red pickup truck is in the other photo. What you don’t see is this area where the tracks are is actually raised off the ground about 2 feet. And this was about 1/3 of the total snow height accumulated for that year. So you can see just how much snow we can get:

(http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2201/snowtrain5qd6.jpg)

Here is the new stuff I found about 1/4 mile from work, at the time it is $4.03 for a 5 gallon bucket, called Sierra Limestone 3/8. This is after 3 hail storms and an inch of rain.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/johnn/ballast%201.jpg)

John,
That’s what I have been using for the last 2-3 years. 1/4 minus limestone, just $15.00 a ton at the quarry.
It is a little oversize to be scale but it stays put and doesn’t splash up on all the buildings and rails.
Later
Rick

Yes it stays in place, I’ll continue to buy by the bucket as I don’t need that much and don’t have storage.

Your “pea gravel” appears to have flat surfaces. Around these and many other parts, what is referred to as pea gravel is round.
Ralph

Ralph,

It is round but I have no problems with it. Stays in place very good, the problem I have is when the dog runs though it.

Rick Marty said:
John, That's what I have been using for the last 2-3 years. 1/4 minus limestone, just $15.00 a ton at the quarry. It is a little oversize to be scale but it stays put and doesn't splash up on all the buildings and rails. Later Rick
Thats what I use

How about having a look at Polymeric sand. It is sold where ever paving stones are sold. When you are setting a brick, EP Henry, or simply flagstone for a patio, the polymeric sand is swept into the joints. After you are happy that all of the joints are filled, you simply wet them with a fine mist from a garden hose. The sand locks into place once its dry. But it never gets as hard as mortar or grout.It remains somewhat pliable.

So for your backwoods lines, this may be of use to you. It comes in different colors and grit sizes.

I have had Concrete Sand as ballast for a year and a half. It is a very course sand, and pretty close to scale.Less a true monsoon rain, it stay really well. I have compacted material underneath and all floating track. As others have said, make sure you have PLENTY of drainage under your roadbed. Don’t trust your eye, get a hose and water it down. It will become evident what you need to do.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/don_pearson/_forumfiles/gradestart.JPG)

Recently visited my local quarry and I think I have 3 options, looking for suggestions on best combo of options. First pic represents the options. Left to right it’s; 1/4’ Crushed stone, Grit, or Screening. Second pic top is just plain 1/4" and the bottom is 1/4’ with screening.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/cpo/_forumfiles/ballast.jpghttp://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/cpo/_forumfiles/Trackwithballast.jpg)

It looks to me that the 1/4" is a screened rock. So it wont have a lot of fines. If you actually “scale” your ballast, most around my neck of the woods the 1:1 scale guys use a 3-4" optimal sized rock. That figures out in 1:20.3 to about 13/64" rock. Well they dont make that, but 1/4" is real close. So I suggest the 1/4" stuff. But like I said before get something like a gravel with fines in it for a subbase. Use the 1/4 stuff you showed above for your “show” top layer.

Ask the quarry if they have a 1/4" fines or 1/4" gravel. Look at it, you should see 1/4 rock mixed in with a lot of finer material.

Matt,

If you want to use the cinders for your ballast. Why not mix a small amount of Portland cement in with it. It will lighten up the color a small amount but the portland will help keep the ballast in place.

My ballast has arrived, and the fine/screening(in the small buckets) Thanks so much for all the advice and guidance, it was much appreciated and helpful; now can someone come over and help me disperse it. :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/cpo/_forumfiles/Dumpster.jpg)

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/cpo/_forumfiles/dumpsterrock.jpg)

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/cpo/_forumfiles/screenings.jpg)

That’s an interesting delivery method; in a roll-off. How did you arrange that? I pick it up myself in a small utility trailer about 800-900 lbs. a load for under $10 each.

I’ve not seen a roll-off used to deliver gravel either.
I get 8 tons delivered for $160. If I pick it up, it’s still $20 a ton.
Ralph

I had no means of picking up the quantity I was looking for in a cost efficient manner. I think Tilcon charges $21+ a ton. I asked my contractor if he could pick up some gravel for me. He is a train enthusiast too. He delivered it in a roll off to help preserve my driveway from the intermingling of the rock. Tilcon has a 5 ton minimum delivery to a residence, and they would have just dumped the whole thing in my driveway and I don’t know how much I need.
He said for me to use as much as I want and he will use the remainder on some up coming jobs. I believe it’s about 4-5 ton in there. And he also brought over some fines which are in the buckets. I plan to lay down about 3" of the 1/4" gravel and then top coat it with a mixture of gravel and fines.
So for me to pay him to deliver it, it works for me.
Jon - but I would not have thought to check into Tilcon had you not mentioned it, Thanks.

shelley sherbondy said:
My ballast has arrived, and the fine/screening(in the small buckets) Thanks so much for all the advice and guidance, it was much appreciated and helpful; now can someone come over and help me disperse it. :) :) :)
R-T-R ballast cars can be had from LGB http://www.onlytrains.com/model/trains/43410.html :lol: :lol: