How do you bond ballast - usually crusher fines or some such - on an outdoor layout? I heard some people use diluted glue? What kind of glue? How is it applied?
You would want something waterfoof but Everything I have heard about doing balast this way was overtime it still breaks apart. I would just use the balast/crusher fines. Once it is wet it should pack nice and your balast should stay. For areas it washes away, just build some small retaining walls either with rock or wood. Part of the fun is having to rebalast every year or so. Just like the real RR Im sure others will help with other methods.
I’ve had limited success with mixing mortar in with the ballast. I’ve never actually measured the ratio’s, just a couple cupfuls of mortar to a small bucket of ballast. It was just a hit or miss experiment to see how it held up.
It was recommended to me and I have tried it with some success of ballasting outside just like a person does nside with a mixture of Elmer’s glue and water 50/50 and then spraying with wet water (water with a drop of liquid soap in it). You would think it would wash a way and not work, but except for a driving down pour, it does help it stay in place because though it gets rediluted with rain it also redries in the same location. What is the big difference that cause you to have to pay more attention to reballasting is the contraction and expansion of the materials with the temperature swing. Its my thoughts that is what really moves the ballast around.
I have had some positive results with pelletized limestone mixed in with my 1/4 minus ballast.
I use #2 poultry grit for ballast and have never glued it down. As long as it isn’t piled up to form a raised roadbed it holds up pretty well here in the rainy northwest. I do have to check for ballast in switch flangeways occasionally but that usually only takes a few minutes.
You lose some ballast the first year or two and have to put more down each Spring but after it settles in reballasting is fairly minimal. Of course if you have flooding or large hail you’d have to replace quite a bit but then even bonded ballast would probably suffer a lot in that case.
I use 3/8 inch minus crusher fines. Quarter inch minus would be more in scale, but it is harder to find here in beautiful downtown Deer Park. The irregular shaped crushed rock locks together, with the very fine dust helping to bond everything together. After ballasting the track, I use a gentle sprinkler (rain is better) to bond everything together. It is as hard as any “bonded” with glue ballast, and much easier to re-do.
Ken Brunt said:Like Ken I have used cement and sand with a product called "Bridge Topping" from an aggreate operation in Renton WA. I have found that if the ballast is cemented it tends to break up when the track exspanded with the heat! I will be using the larger material close to what Steve is talking about and no cement. Also, you will want to use clamps on all track sections that are in this ballast so you don't get separation of track sections! Yes it happens and there goes your nice NEW Engine to the hard ground!
I've had limited success with mixing mortar in with the ballast. I've never actually measured the ratio's, just a couple cupfuls of mortar to a small bucket of ballast. It was just a hit or miss experiment to see how it held up.
Paul
Steve Featherkile said:Steve, Pick up a bag of the pelletized limestone and try it.....Wal Mart even carries it here.
I use 3/8 inch minus crusher fines. Quarter inch minus would be more in scale, but it is harder to find here in beautiful downtown Deer Park. The irregular shaped crushed rock locks together, with the very fine dust helping to bond everything together. After ballasting the track, I use a gentle sprinkler (rain is better) to bond everything together. It is as hard as any "bonded" with glue ballast, and much easier to re-do.
Jim Carter used weldwood contact cement drizzled on the ballast, seems to work very well for him. (The solvent based version, not the wimpy water based stuff)… buy it by the gallon.
Regards, Greg
David Russell said:I tend to buy ballast by the ton, not the bag. It is far too expensive that way.Steve Featherkile said:Steve, Pick up a bag of the pelletized limestone and try it.....Wal Mart even carries it here.
I use 3/8 inch minus crusher fines. Quarter inch minus would be more in scale, but it is harder to find here in beautiful downtown Deer Park. The irregular shaped crushed rock locks together, with the very fine dust helping to bond everything together. After ballasting the track, I use a gentle sprinkler (rain is better) to bond everything together. It is as hard as any "bonded" with glue ballast, and much easier to re-do.
Steve Featherkile said:I started with 8 tons. I'll be calling in a day or two to get another 8 tons delivered. Ralph
I tend to buy ballast by the ton, not the bag. It is far too expensive that way.
Art Sylvester said:Art, We tend to get in depth sometimes but just like to share our wealth of knowledge. May I ask a few questions though? 1.... What are you using for subroadbed outside? Raised and trying to back fill? flat on ground,weed block or something to retain the ballast underneath or side to side? 2.... What is the ballast of choice? 3.... Pictures are very helpful ;)
How do you bond ballast - usually crusher fines or some such - on an outdoor layout? I heard some people use diluted glue? What kind of glue? How is it applied?
Steve Featherkile said:NO Steve, Your buying 1 bag of GLUE! Ya' get it? ;)
I tend to buy ballast by the ton, not the bag. It is far too expensive that way.
David Russell said:David, many thanks for your interest and giving me opportunity to elaborate on my ballast problem.Art Sylvester said:Art, We tend to get in depth sometimes but just like to share our wealth of knowledge. May I ask a few questions though? 1.... What are you using for subroadbed outside? Raised and trying to back fill? flat on ground,weed block or something to retain the ballast underneath or side to side? 2.... What is the ballast of choice? 3.... Pictures are very helpful ;)
How do you bond ballast - usually crusher fines or some such - on an outdoor layout? I heard some people use diluted glue? What kind of glue? How is it applied?
In fact, 80% of my sub-roadbed is brick, 20% redwood planks, and none of it has ballast of any kind. The tracks rest directly on the brick or redwood. About 1/4 of the RR is bounded by gravel chosen more for its look than utility. It is called “Palm Springs Gold” and is a mixture of various colored, 1/2" angular pebbles. In some places, I do put the pebbles between the ties to raise the track a little above the bricks where they are a little uneven in height. None of the track on the bricks is tied down but is allowed to “float” during thermal expansion and contraction. This system has worked just great for me for 7 years of coastal southern California operation.
My question about ballast is because I have just built a deck girder bridge following Richard Smith’s splendid 2001 Garden RR magazine article about his Port Orford bridge, and I do want to ballast mine as a prototypical model rather than for utility. I have some jet black crusher fines from a basaltic volcano in the Mojave Desert that would look just great. I am grateful to all responders for the suggestions and may choose follow Ken Brunt’s suggestion to add a little mortar mix to the fines and see how that works. I need only a coffee can or so of fines for the job, not 8 tons.
As for the bridge, of which I am extremely proud, I’ll get some photos this afternoon, add one of my “Palm Springs Gold” gravel, and then post them tonight or tomorrow if I can find out how to post pictures to this site.
Art,
Thanks for the compliments on my bridge article. I built that before I went to benchwork and was still railroading on the ground.
Since your track is laying directly on a hard surface you might consider using a texture (stone) type of paint that is available in spray cans before putting down the track. Then adding a small bit of ballast over that. The spray is available in several brands and includes colors such as “granite”. It is used to make planters & pots look like they’re made of stone. This would give a stony look even in spots where the ballast has been washed away.
To apply first clean the surface and then apply a good primer such as Bondo or Krylon. Choose a color (red/brown, black or grey) that best complements the stone color you choose. The stone spray can take a few hours to cure so wait for a day without rain to apply. It holds up very well but can sometimes flake a bit on certain spots due to dirt or moisture when applied. Usually the primer hides the flaws pretty well but additional coats of stone paint can be applied if needed.
Just a suggestion since any ballast you put down, whether glued or not, will be a very thin layer and prone to movement and dispersal.
Art,
I asked these questions as I feel it will open up a whole new window for you if these guys know a bit more as to what your after. I too enjoyed Richards article and I’m working my way up the ladder to “Old guy modeler status”
Richard,
I think my favorite part of that bridge is how you put into thought of hiding the attaching elements (mainly screws). I also remember you used un treated pine/fir as you didn’t have anything else “STRAIGHT” on hand.
Ahhh Haaahhh…note to self… mug shot of Richard in that article. Wonder where I’m gonna put him…it’s all Chandlers fault (people in windows article).
Ok…minor out loud thought on page one…back to topic of Art’s ballast…
Did I say welcome to LSC Art?
if not
WELCOME
David said: “Ahhh Haaahhh…note to self… mug shot of Richard in that article. Wonder where I’m gonna put him…it’s all Chandlers fault (people in windows article).”
I look best on a post office wall.
The latest GR e-mail I recieved had a tip on using Quickrete concrete bonding adhesive. Not tried just noted
Welcome aboard
David Marconi said:
The latest GR e-mail I recieved had a tip on using Quickrete concrete bonding adhesive. Not tried just notedWelcome aboard
For Richard or the ballast?