Large Scale Central

Bachmann Quality Control (or lack there of!)

Without exaggeration I have purchased in excess of twenty Bachmann Anniversary locomotives for my various projects. I have come to expect a degree of relatively poor quality control as most of my purchases were to strip for parts and I was ready to pass it over. However, my latest purchase from a major authorised Bachmann reseller on eBay has me guessing have B’mann lost the plot. This is not an indictment on the eBay seller but simply to point out that the locomotive was new from a Bachmann dealer and not a eBay ‘new’ special. On arrival, the usual detail pieces were to be found rattling around in the box (no big deal, just a hassle to refit). The smokestack and its mounting had broken away from the smokebox dictating some superglue to refit with possibility of superglue ‘hazing’ around the join after regluing. Also, the pilot wheel insulating sleeves were cracked and deteriorated (both axles).

Within 30 seconds of running it was obvious that the tender light did not work. Several hours later after replacing two LED bulbs to no avail, I checked the loco terminal connections and noted no power at the disconnect terminal on the rear of the loco. After stewing over that for sometime I ran the loco. Seconds later the reverse gear linkage was flopping around. Investigation showed a screw missing. At this point I decided to strip the loco and give it a once over. Every screw in the drivetrain and valve gear linkages was loose (finger tight only). The reason for no power for the tender light was that during assembly at the factory, both power leads had been severed. Also the onboard ballast weight was loose in the body. OK, this loco was only purchased for parts, but at some point all these parts needed to be used so this obvious lack of quality control is not acceptable. I grant that the loco was most likely assembled around four or five years ago and has been sitting idle on a shelf somewhere, however, screws do not loosen themselves sitting on a shelf. Wires do not sever themselves sitting on a shelf. Cast weight blocks do not loosen themselves sitting on a shelf. All these problems, with the exception of the loose detail pieces, are directly attributable to poor assembly and equally poor quality control at point of assembly. The Anniversary loco is being currently manufactured as part of Bachmann’s 175 year anniversary, so I hope that QC has improved of late.

I view poor QC as smptomatic of poor work ethic. I know for sure that any future purchases of B’mann products will only be after the product has been in the marketplace for many years as although the Anniversary is my all time favourite largescale loco, I have lost faith in any future purchases of the model or any other B’mann product.

Tim, sorry to hear about the problems, perhaps the best way to see Bachmann products is as a kit?
Pre-assembled in order to ship in a smaller size box… so you need to put it apart before you start
putting it together;-))) Well, my last purchase from Bachmann was their Shay - one of the first release
I sold it as soon as I figured that the rate of plastic degradation and therefore structural falling apart
was faster than that of Bachman’s service in providing me with replacement parts… I gather that
Bachmann changed the formula for their plastic since so I may be looking into some cars or even
the K, but not in order to run it. Rather, I am going to place it upside down for viewing its drive train;-)
I hope it will survive somewhat longer like that! Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi

Zubi,
I am realistic enough to accept a degree of lack of QC, but it seems that this loco may have been the ‘lemon’ of the bunch.

Tim -

From your description it sounds like a combination of poor assembly (pinched wires / loose screws) and rough handling in shipping (broken parts / loose weight). Other than to improve the packaging, there isn’t much anyone can do about the handling part except to inspect on arrival at the dealer, which will never happen.

I’ve only purchase two Annies. The first was from an early run and was just about perfect on arrival, The second from a later run, suffered from the loose drive train screws and had the front boiler mounts completely snapped off from shipping. I lost a screw and have yet to repair the boiler mount.

Hmmm…gives a whole new meaning to the phrase “Shake the box kit”

Interesting problem. I have 3 Bug Maulers, one was bought NIB in a set, but the other two were bought loose second hand. All three were a-ok. I was going to suggest that it sounded like you got an engine that had been dissassembled by a previous owner who then sold it as NIB, even though it was used, but Jon’s statment about recieving one in a similar condition kinda cancels that idea.

More likely both you and Jon got engines from the same bad lot from the same slacker shift at the factory. Its quite possible that the workers assembling the engines that day, or week, simply didnt know any better, and by the time QC caught the issue a mess had already been shipped out. This is a big problem manufacturing on contract in the PRC, you have zero control over just who is doing the actual assembly and how skilled or unskilled those workers are, or if their being motivated by pride or fear. If they are under pressure of their jobs to get X number of product out the door by X date, they will get much sloppier in the assembly. This is why Bmann may have no choice but to offer the lifetime warrenty IMHO.

Some members of this forum will pipe up, “I’ve never had any problems with my Bachmann, etc, etc.”
That’s good.
I have always maintained that Bachmann is the Junk of the Large scale, especially right out of the box.
Zubi hit it right on the head!
You are buying a kit, to take apart and put back together.
Why do you think Barry’s Big Train came along years ago, shortly after Bachmann entered the Large scale market.
Dave Goodson completely rebuilds his when he gets them.

Sure, I will admit that the locos are beautiful in detail and correct scale.
Beauty is only skin deep!
If Bachmann would spend half the time inside their locos that they do on the outside, you’d have a great model.
I don’t understand their stubbornness to do this.
They don’t pay any attention to any of their beta testers, or make any attempt to improve the mechanics and electronics of their locos.
TOG

Bachmann is at the lowest end of quality as far as im concerned and i really cant understand people paying upwards of $750 for an engine they have to replace counterweights and re wire, but that is they’re choice. Having said the above i guess if you buy a Cadallac you get quality and if you buy an edsel you get edsel its all in what you are willing to put up with. I have a circus set and a royal blue set and am not intending on buying anything else from bachmann. As to what i know and what ive read don’t need the hassel! My train of thought is, and im not sold on Accucraft having owned a #2 goose and selling because i thought it was over rated and way over priced even though i got a good deal and lost a little when i sold. Would think most trainers think accucraft is #1 and then Lgb, and then it would be a toss up between usa and aristo, i like both and own all of the above, but would place Bachmann a dead last! So buy a cadallac and not a edsel or amc pacer comes to mind. I like buicks over Cadallacs also but that is my personal choice believe the general public has come to believe cadallacs highest quality. At any rate that is my 2 cents on the issue

I have a first-gen Shay, two Climaxi, three 45 Tonners, a Connie, two Annies, and now a K. The only locomotive that didnt arrive with SOMETHING I needed to screw/glue/weld/rivet/duct tape on was the K, and thats because it came from TOC first, and he did his due diligence on it.

FWIW. YMMV.

In all fairness to Bachmann, compare how they’re shipped vs. Accucraft, USA, etc. When I get an Accucraft loco in here for review, it’s damn near mummified in the shipping case, but all the little bits and pieces (whistles, safety, trucks, etc.) are packaged separately. In effect, somewhat of a kit that you have to assemble. You’ve got to install the handrails on USA and Aristo locos yourself, too. I’ve got two Rich Yoder brass EBT hopper cars here for review right now. I had to add details and trucks to that, too. The only “real” difference between Bachmann and those others is that you have the extra pleasure of going on a treasure hunt in the box for all the detail parts instead of them being kept neatly in a zip-loc bag for you. Credit Bachmann for at least now packaging spare parts in their boxes.

I agree, it can be frustrating, but compare it to the HO scale brass locos of not too long ago. Beautiful models to look at, but they almost always needed remotoring straight out of the box! MR’s pages used to be filled with “how to get your brass locos running” type articles. The only “killer” problem the B’mann K has is the counterweights, and that’s being quickly addressed by the company at their cost even for shipping. Ever hear of HO brass manufacturer saying “Hey, our motors are $#!*–here’s new one.”? Frankly, I find it easier to deal with minor fixes on a Bachmann loco than I do having to deal with minor issues on a $4K Accucraft loco–such as a tender that doesn’t roll, details that don’t fit where they’re supposed to, or a failure to put little things like glazing in the cab windows! Bachmann’s the favorite whipping boy for quality issues, but they’re far from the only ones with problems. EVERY manufacturer has had issues. Aristo’s redesigned their motor blocks numerous times. USA’s known to have issues with their power trucks, too.

Quote:
John wrote:

They don’t pay any attention to any of their beta testers, or make any attempt to improve the mechanics and electronics of their locos.


I’ve got to take issue with that. Bachmann works very hard to make improvements on past goofs. How do you think we’ve had 5 generations of 4-6-0 drives, improved Shay trucks, etc.? And whether we like the idea of the “super socket” or not, the idea was born from a need to improve the electronics from the previous disaster. It may have caused more problems than it solved, but there was an effort made to correct previous weaknesses. Their problem is that they don’t have beta testers to listen to prior to a model’s release. The consumer is put in that role. That’s a bit problematic, and largely the root of their PR difficulties, but I don’t think “consumers as beta testers” is a concept limited to Philadelphia. We’ve all heard it said, “don’t buy the first model year of any car.”

Quote:
Jerry wrote:

…I really cant understand people paying upwards of $750 for an engine they have to replace counterweights and re wire…


There is no need to rewire the loco to get it to run. The counterweights do need to be reworked, but–as stated above–Bachmann is fixing that on their dime. You may or may not have to do some rewiring to install aftermarket electronics, but that’s no different than any other manufacturer. I’ve put R/C in many brands made. Step 1 is always “gut electronics.” It is noteworthy that one of the most vocal critics of the “super socket” was also the first to develop a compatible plug-and-play interface for his R/C control, so step 1 is no longer needed in this case.

Personally, I think the K-27 is a good deal at that price. The level of detail rivals–maybe even surpasses more expensive brass models. They’re not rugged, drop-proof models. They aren’t intended to be. If you want that, spend the money on LGB instead. The details on Bachmann (and other highly detailed) models are fragile. They have to be viewed and dealt with in that light. They are going to occasionally break off if mishandled or bumped the wrong way. That doesn’t make them at all inferior, just a different class of model. I don’t think its so much Cadillac/Edsel as much as it is sportscar/pick-up. You wouldn’t want to dump a half ton of gravel in the trunk of your Corvette any more than you’d want to run your F250 Crew Cab at 200 mph at Watkins Glen. They’re both the same kind of transportation, and both very good at what they do, but designed with entirely different audiences in mind.

Later,

K

Jerry, the only reason I’m re-wiring mine is to put battery/rc into it. Its not designed for it, so I have to do it myself. Its just fine for track power the way it comes from the factory.

Tim,
I think all of this comes back to your statement that there is a major lack of quality control in the manufacturing of todays models. The problems seems to be that most train companies are no longer manufacturing thier products, but are having them contracted out to other companies. I dont think there is a lack of skill in these companies, but they do not take the kind of pride in thier work as if it were thier own company. Perhaps the train companies are putting too much trust in thier manufacturers.

I think that is why companies such as LGB had mostly high quality products; they were in complete control. Piko operates in the same manor and they have a rapidly growing line of G scale. They have made thier stuff in Germany for years, but recently started additional production in China. The difference with this company is that Piko has built thier own factory (in both Germany and China) so they have complete control over the manufacturing process. It will be interesting to see if they can maintain thier high standard of quality as they start this new venture.

-Bruce

Having been involved in the process for at least 11 years, all I can say is it’s been a real eye-opener.

As far as re-wire, if you want reliable chuff, rewire it.
If you want incandescent bulbs, re-wire.
If surface-mount components fail, re-wire.
If you want to remove several levels of complexity, re-wire.

Yes, it runs without it.
But it can run BETTER by re-wire.

Just to add my 2 cents worth,

I just bought an Aristo GP-40 at our clubs Carlyle event in feb, opened the box, and put the engine on the track and ran it… There was no, ““putting on hand rails””, which was a first for me… The only extra parts in the box were, different style couplers and a cover to replace the dynamic brake cover, if you didn’t want dynamic brakes…

Only brought this out, to state that some manufacturers are making changes to improve quality, and esae of ““Running out of the box””…

Kevin Strong said:
In all fairness to Bachmann, compare how they're shipped vs. Accucraft, USA, etc. ...
Kevin, I think you are mixing up concepts. So let's try to untangle some of it. 1) Tim's thesis is that Bachmann consistently fails in ensuring quality control. This is particularly surprising as: a) Bachmann has been producing in China during its entire career, presumably in the same manufacturing plant, which one would expect to facilitate quality control. Yet, the (final level) assembly and final quality control consistently suffers and remains unacceptable. Plus, there is an apparent lack of feedback from these levels to the design and component production levels. b) at the same time, Bachmann demonstrated a pretty stunning evolution in design, engineering and part manufacturing quality. This has been a guided process rather than an event and one which has surpassed that of all other makes in large scale manufacturer's group. Therefore, the discrepancy between a) i.e. poor assembly, lack of QC and lack of internal feedback (incl. beta testing) and b) superior design + engineering + manufacturing skills grows and becomes intolerable (it may have been tolerable 20 years ago on cheap Big Hauler sets and other cheap and cheerful made in China junk). Tim's conclusion is that he is not willing to risk his money on expensive junk. (I arrived at the same conclusion a dozen years ago but I admit that recently the temptation to give it another try is growing.) 2)`Issues` are not systematic failures. Indeed `issues` happen to every manufacturer but Tim is not addressing those. `Issues` are more often than not design problems rather than random level of quality, and they are most definitely not a consistent, systematic failure to ensure quality. 3) Assembly and final QC is not the same as design problems. These two are also rather weakly related although bad design will often influence assembly and final QC. This is however not the case with Bachmann products as their design and engineering department (I guess also resident in China) is by now probably the best in the entire large scale segment. The growing complexity of Bachmann's products over the last 15 years required such top level design and engineering. It is a pity that this is not matched by top quality manufacturing and assembly. The example you give, brass engines with poor drive/motor are the case of a typical design/engineering problem. 4) In all fairness, poor packing can hardly be used as an excuse for a manufacturer! However, I am entirely not convinced that Bachmann`s packing is poor. I cannot verify since I did not buy any Bachmann for the last 12 years so my most recent evidence is that the Shay was packed well enough to survive both trans-Pacific and trans-Atlantic journeys. On the other hand, the mummification procedure you mention and which is used by Accucraft is not only extremely primitive, but it also frequently results in damage not only to fine details and weak structures, but also on occasions leads to severe structural destruction of the model. One may argue that Accucraft models being brass are much heavier than Bachmann, and therefore they should require different packing and are more prone to damage due to weight involved. I do not entirely agree. From several examples I know that all my Aster and Kiss brass arrived in perfect shape whether shipped by air or surface. 5) Finally, in large scales we were fortunate to have a leading brand which for many years served as a reference in most if not all respects: design, manufacturing, quality control, etc. We may have been spoiled, but the fact that both Bachmann and to some extent Accucraft, delegates quality control (QC is not beta testing!) to the purchaser, borders with insult, at least to me. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
Andy Clarke said:
Just to add my 2 cents worth, I just bought an Aristo GP-40 at our clubs Carlyle event in feb, opened the box, and put the engine on the track and ran it... There was no, ""putting on hand rails"", which was a first for me...
Andy, the same holds for all Aster/LGB and KISS highly detailed and heavy brass models I have - no separate, put it on yourself parts. Best, Zubi

Poor packing is the least of Bachmann’s marketing.
It’s the skimpy spider web size wiring. The under powered, loosely mounted small motors.
The power contacts on some of the tenders. The position of the plug in cords on some tenders. And other internal parts.
Like I said before----Beauty is only skin deep.

TOG

I’m not arguing that Bachmann doesn’t have QC issues. They most certainly do, and they can be frustrating. My point is that their problems seem to be no worse than other manufacturers–they just seem to be the perennial whipping boy for them. Bachmann’s problem is that they’ve always been dogged by this “junk” reputation from their days making el-cheapo HO sets, and compounded by the miserable performance of the original Big Hauler. (Yet how many people have gons and flats from those sets still operating on their railroads?)

Quote:
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In all fairness, poor packing can hardly be used as an excuse for a manufacturer! However, I am entirely not convinced that Bachmann`s packing is poor.


My point is simply that the details in Bachmann’s packing fall off in transit. Other manufacturers leave the details off the model, requiring the buyer to add them once they’ve arrived at the destination. In either case, “some assembly required.” One just has all the parts in one place while the other puts the buyer on a treasure hunt. This is to illustrate that details falling off of the cars is not necessarily a QC issue, and can’t be used in comparison with other makes where the details are either not already applied, or rather sparse or coarse at best. Details aren’t going to fall off of an LGB box car because there are few separate parts to fall off.

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Finally, in large scales we were fortunate to have a leading brand which for many years served as a reference in most if not all respects: design, manufacturing, quality control, etc.


But not detail or scale fidelity. Again, you’re confusing pick-ups with sports cars. I’m not debating the former LGB’s reputation for quality (though they’re not immune from QC issues, either). People who want the robustness of LGB are willing to sacrifice detail. Those who want the detail of Bachmann/Accucraft are willing to sacrifice durability. From the perspective of a scale model, a $750 LGB mogul is “expensive junk.” It’ll run forever, yeah, but I may as well put a motor on a 2 x 4. It’s a matter of what you want from a model.

Quote:
..

It’s the skimpy spider web size wiring. The under powered, loosely mounted small motors.
The power contacts on some of the tenders. The position of the plug in cords on some tenders. And other internal parts.


I’ve gutted LGB, USA, Aristo, Bachmann… They all use the same size wires. USA, Aristo, and Bachmann all use the same el-cheapo Mabuchi motors. They all have similar issues with power pick-ups and weak connectors. I’ve even had LGB’s oversize banana plugs fall apart on me. There’s no criticism that can be heaped on Bachmann in this regard that cannot be heaped on the other manufacturers. You want to talk wire size? Look at Berlyn’s locos. Beautiful to look at, but the wiring was horridly skimpy.

I’m not “defending” Bachmann. They do stuff that defies logic. My point is that they’re hardly the only kid in the swimming pool. Singling them out for their transgressions to the exclusion of everyone else is simply not an accurate portrayal of the big picture. When these criteria are applied across the board, EVERYONE makes “expensive junk.”

Quote:
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Like I said before----Beauty is only skin deep.


The mechanics of a motor block vs a motor driving a single axle and using connecting rods to transmit power are worlds apart. Had Bachmann used a motor block for the K the way LGB does, loose counterweights wouldn’t be an issue because they’d be purely cosmetic. Again, it gets back to that sports car vs. Pick-up illustration. My fleet of Bachmann locos has been every bit as reliable as the LGB locos I’ve operated over the years. BUT they do require a bit more diligence in terms of routine maintenance. That’s the nature of the beast, and something I’m willing to do in order to get the scale models I prefer to operate.

Later,

K

<When these criteria are applied across the board, EVERYONE makes “expensive junk.” >

Hmmmmm…
I can’t recall taking apart any of my LGB locos right out of the box to make them “better”.
In fact, I’ve done nothing to improve them, other than to add sound or AirWire.
The first Bachmann I owned wouldn’t run right out of the box.
And when I did get it to run it was a "herky-jerky’ POS!

This morning I removed the tender shell from a brand new Bachmann 2-8-0 that I’m installing a Px 2K2.
The first thing I noticed is they forgot to continue the wire from the so-called sound activator in the loco.
It was missing.
The resistor to the back-up light was broken off of its mounting post.
The other two mickey-mouse ring terminal wire ends were loose on their posts.
I gutted every thing and rewired the entire tender with a new simple connector that goes from the tender to the firebox in the loco. None of that under the tender, hard-to-get-to plugs!
And so on…

TOG

Quote:
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I can’t recall taking apart any of my LGB locos right out of the box to make them “better”.


I can, a brand-spankin’ new LGB mogul. Took it out of the box, disassembled it, and put a proper coat of paint on it. Gone was the red boiler and green cab and tender. Oh, and then there was the 2017 “americanized” Stainz. Discarded every inch of anything that still looked german, re-wrapped the boiler, laminated the cab with mahogany… Oh, repainted garishly green stock car, brilliantly yellow box car, grotesque gondola… Definitely improved each and every one of them. After that, dad and I stopped buying LGB. Compared to what else was on the market (Delton–equal in price, but better and more realistic detail/paint, and Bachmann–cheap and easy to detail/paint to my liking), LGB was “expensive junk.” Locos? I built 'em myself or bought/modified the cheap Bachmann ones.

Remember, quality is a matter of perspective and what you want from a model.

Quote:
...

The first Bachmann I owned wouldn’t run right out of the box.
And when I did get it to run it was a "herky-jerky’ POS!


Which loco? I’m not discounting your experience, as I have no reason to doubt you. There are B’mann locos which were notorious lemons (i.e., generations 1 - 3 Big Hauler, the 2-4-2 and other early offerings, the first Shay…) I will, however, counter your experiences with mine. I’ve had 7 of the recent generation locos through here (5 “Spectrum” series and two “anniversary” 4-6-0s) and all have run flawlessly straight out of the box. Four of the 7 are my workhorse locos. 2 (the two 4-6-0s) are in pieces awaiting new drivers to kitbash them into 2-6-2s. (Just to clarify, I’m having larger drivers custom made for this. It’s not a matter of bad parts.) The last is in pieces being rebuilt to a 1:22 consolidation so it can make the tight clearances on my dad’s railroad. In fairness, all have been converted to batter R/C, so I can’t comment on their long-term ability to transfer power from the rails to the motor. Short term (on the test track) they all did just fine.

Quote:
...

The first thing I noticed is they forgot to continue the wire from the so-called sound activator in the loco.
It was missing.
The resistor to the back-up light was broken off of its mounting post.


Bachmann doesn’t run wires from the sound contact plug into the tender. They didn’t do it in the 4-4-0 or the 2-6-0 either. They run the plug to the circuit board on the tender, but it’s up to the consumer to run the wires from the circuit board to the sound system. It’s not a matter of “forgetting,” it’s just how they do it. My guess is that they figure the sound system comes with wires to activate the chuff anyway, and whoever will be doing the install will be fluent with a soldering iron and will have no trouble running wires to the appropriate spot on the circuit board. That’s not a QC issue, rather just a design choice.

I also don’t recall there being a “mounting post” for the in-line resistor to the back-up light on the 2-8-0 tender, but it’s been a few months since I had one apart. If I recall, the one in mine was just hanging below the light. You’d have to show me photo. (not a slam, I just don’t know what you’re talking about.)

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I gutted every thing and rewired the entire tender with a new simple connector that goes from the tender to the firebox in the loco. None of that under the tender, hard-to-get-to plugs!


But you’re sacrificing realism for convenience. The “hard to get to” plugs are done so to be unobtrusive and look like the standard air/water/safety chain connections that go between a locomotive and tender. They are hard to plug in, I’ll admit. But they’re where they are quite on purpose. They (and any other manufacturer) could very easily run wires so they’re easier to access, but they’d look quite unrealistic. When realism is your goal, you sacrifice convenience.

Later,

K

somebody-Quick, go read this post!

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/23/postid/14343/view/topic/Default.aspx

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