Large Scale Central

Bachmann NMRA new product announcement

General Discussion
#1

Well, looks like largescale is ignored this year. The ‘Lynn’ and Climax are rehashed previously released products so really do not figure as ‘new’ announcements. The Climax is grossly overpriced for the current market, like the Forney, so will find a very small niche market. Who actually determines what is produced? If the management continue to listen to the 1/20.3 scale crowd, then Bachmann will tie up new releases with items such as C-19’s, C-16’s, etc, ignoring the poor cousin, 1/22.5 scale. We get the retooled Lyn, the first ‘new release’ 1/22.5 scale since the retooled Anniversay model around ten years ago!

So what did we get new as part of the NMRA announcement. Well, we got a Thomas ‘TAR’ waggon. Did I miss something? The Emily coaches were already available prior the NMRA convention.

What did ‘h.o.’ get? Well multiple locomotive releases along with a 64-wheel Schnabel transformer load waggon - just what everyone needs!

What did On30 get? A new 14 tonne Heisler plus a multiple release of the Porter variants.

Looks like nothing new for me this year from the Bachmann stable. The Forney is still grossly overpriced, still over $1000 locally. The cheapest price for the black version of the Lynn is $299 (Lynn not as yet released). The Climax will no doubt be at least $1200 or more locally. What do I get for my $1200 plus? I get a rerelease loco that has a proprietary DCC sound system that if it fails is a throw away item. Has largescale become a nonissue with Bachmann? They priced themselves out of the market they created with their Big Hauler range.

#2

Tim,

if you remember the k-27 was announced at the national narrow gauge convention, so there is still some hope.

#3

Al,
I do not begrudge 1/20.3 scale for attracting overall attention, but it would be nice to get a few crumbs occasionally. Basically nothing new, other than ‘improvements’ since the battery operated Big Hauler in 1989. Basically, every piece of Big Hauler rolling stock originates from 1989! You think that Mr. O’Reilly would think of something new for us ‘small scale’ largescalers. The Indy was little more than a toy when released in circa 2004 and like other releases its actual ‘scale’ is a well kept secret. The rerelease Indy just follows the “let’s just retool and make it a bit better this time around.” The logging skid was jokingly marketed as 1/20.3 scale, but in reality is more like 1/29 scale.

The Forney was also released at the narrow gauge convention, but like everything else it is 1/20.3 scale! Maybe Philly thinks all 1/22.5 scalers only run toys so why give them something decent to play with.

#4

Hands up those who think that if Bachmann could do it all over again they would have made the Big Hauler series 1:20.3, and not 1:22.5.

#5

Tim I believe the crap-economy is the biggest reason we are getting hosed this year. No one wants to stick thier necks out financially, especially since Bmann’s recent 1/20 offerings ending up on Trainworlds clearance pages. The Mallet, 3-Truck Shay, ended up there, the Forney should be called the Flop-ney, entirely due to its insane price. You are totally correct that the primary cause for the painfull prices is mfrs insistance on including propriatary electronics. Aristo, MTH, LGB are also guilty of this and of course none of it works with the other so for most of us its just useless expensive junk. Increased production costs in China only account for so much. Afterall how can Newquida make almost the same passenger car Marklin makes but only costs $50 vs $250. Guess the box is made of very expensive cardboard.

#6

My initial foray into large scale, some six years ago, was with Bachmann’s 1:22.5 Big Hauler range. It was and I still is a reasonable priced product and as it was to run in my back yard it seemed ideal - I didn’t want museum quality and the heartbreak of pieces falling or breaking off - this as I gather does apply to some makers models.

It is unlikely I would have entered the hobby with the alternatives which I knew were available at the time. In the UK it seemed that the choice was mainly 16mm. products 32mm guage and a well known, but expensive German make, which used 45mm. track.

The Big Hauler range seemed to have a reasonable selection of models, many of which I purchased, such as coal hoppers (5), tank cars (5), gondolas (5), boxcar/reefers (5) and the J&S passenger cars (12). A couple of flat cars (carrying poor representation logs) were bashed into loading dock platforms. A D&RGW ‘Annie’ and White Pass ‘Annie’ (renamed for my own fictitious railroad) were, still are, the motive power. It soon became clear that little to add to my fleet was being produced by Bachmann so having discovered the Aristo-Craft 1:29 range I switched scales. Actually some of the 1:22.5 stock does sit well with the Aristo range, particularly coal hoppers, though not all of it.

Aristo was able to fulfill my railroading expectations and I have been slowly adding to my fleet with their products. (six locos and over fifty items of rolling stock). Whilst I like the n.g outline, I have sold off a fair amount of it keeping the two locos, and sixteen items of rolling stock from a initial stock of 28. I did contemplate, a couple of years ago, of selling all of the Bachmann stock. But, truthfully, it was reading this Forum and seeing so many of the great garden railroads (Ken, Ralph, Shawn, Bruce, the OVGRS and many others who have posted here) who run Bachmann trains - even if some are 1:20.3 - made me come to my senses and decide to keep a reasonable amount of my Big Hauler stock. I am very pleased that I made that decision and am grateful to LSC and its Members for sharing their railroad pics.

It would be a welcome comment from Messrs. Bachmann if they were to state why the Big Hauler range has become a Cinderella to the 1:20.3. range. Cynicism suggests maybe price tags but I could be wrong. Those who read a UK Forum will know that there is an influx of low priced Euro style rolling stock which is gaining favour - not because of the quality and accuracy of the models - but solely based on cost. It seems that there is a general ‘up market’ approach to our hobby, but many cannot afford these high prices. There are also those who can afford the higher prices but have strong reservations about spending large amounts upon a luxury ‘toy’. Most manufacturers have had to increase their prices in the last couple of years due to market fluctuations. I have to say that if I looked at becoming a large scale railroader today I might have second thoughts.

Tony: My both hands are up. lol

#7

Raises hand

I must agree with Tim, I don’t have a crystal ball to see where Bachmann is heading either but it does appear new 1:20.3/Thomas stock is favored over 1:22.5. I think that explains why I am moving to 1:20.3…There is something “new” for me in that scale. I think I would have been just as happy had Bachmann produced their K’s, shay’s and Forneys in 1:22.5. In a way I may have been happier because it would have been a better visual fit with all my LGB stuff. But since they chose to go “scale” I am forced to follow.

As an added note on Bachmann “scale” I am somewhat surprised they have not been called out on their “rubber ruler” as much as some other brands. Their immensely successful Big Hauler sets are troubling to me. Am I mistaken in the belief the 4-6-0 is 1:22.5 but the coaches are likely 1:29? The coaches look great behind my Lionel 4-4-2’s but look horrible being pulled by my Annie.

#8

I would much rather see Bachmann stay with 1:22 scale. Mainly because it is much more affordable. The new release of the Industrial made me very happy. Engine for under a $200 with the spectrum quality. As for rolling stock what more does one need then a flat, box and tank cars. If they dont make what you want then make it yourself. Im not much of a skilled modeler but I forced myself to learn to make things to keep my cost down. Truthfully I hate all the new electonics they put in the engines. To me its just another thing that can go wrong. Keep it simple. I f I want the bells and whistles ect… then I will add it myself. Then thats just me. I cant blame anyone of the co. for not producing much. he economy just s u c k s. You dont need much to build a great RR. To me thats what it is about not seeing how many engines I can buy and getting every piece of rolling stock. Again thats me.

#9

Actually, as far as B’mann chasing the ‘upmarket’ dollars at the expense of the ‘average joe’, they are just following the herd…
Go into your local mall – bunches of upscale ‘boutiques’, instead of the more affordable specialty stores that were there 10 years ago. - Kmart is part of Sears now, so their prices went up. – Even Wally Wurld has tried to go upscale.
Is there more money in it that way? Don’t know, but there’s probably less effort (costs) for the same money… which makes the hot shot bean counters happy.

As for making the customers happy… Youse guys got what you asked for, but you just don’t want it now that it’s here… right?

#10

My issue isnt the “upscale” scale, its the “upscale” price… someone explain to me how the Forney is almost $500 more than the new Lyn, I’ve seen the Lyn upclose, its a completeyl new beast under the shell, I’ll tell you how, no “stuper-socket” electronics already stuffed into it that is completely useless to me and a whole lot of others who dont run Sound, DCC, or RC Battery, WE track powered DC guys are the ones getting soaked pricewise by having to pay extra for junk we’ll never use.

#11
Victor Smith said:
My issue isnt the "upscale" scale, its the "upscale" price... someone explain to me how the Forney is almost $500 more than the new Lyn, I've seen the Lyn upclose, its a completeyl new beast under the shell, I'll tell you how, no "stuper-socket" electronics already stuffed into it that is completely useless to me and a whole lot of others who dont run Sound, DCC, or RC Battery, *WE* track powered DC guys are the ones getting soaked pricewise by having to pay extra for junk we'll never use.
and the battery guys say its cheaper then running track power.
#12

I understand your pain Vic and others.

BUT, there has to be some kind of market research out there or those that are wanting all these “bells and whistles” are yelling louder than you guys are. Afterall, B’mann is a company and their goal is to make money, they do that by making products that appeal to the majority of the market. Somewhere someone has spoken loud enough to tell them that they need to go this direction. Remember, “the squeeky wheel gets the grease.”

I can remember reading about several people complaining that they had to buy a loco, then turn around and put sound and all that other stuff in it and by the time they were done they had $1000 in it. B’mann just eliminated the middle man.

I for one dont want B’mann putting all this stuff in there locos cause that means I gotta tear it back out to put in what I want and I’ve just wasted money on thier stuff.

As for scale, apparently 1:20.3 are more in number. I dont know, again it is the market that is driving B’mann decisions. Model Railroading is a leisure activity, in a crappy economy people spend less on leisure stuff. B’mann is just trying to chase the market where they think they can still make money. Sorry guys that is reality.

As a side note, it seems we are trying to get LS like we have in HO. I remember when I first started in HO, you basically had bare bones locomotive and rolling stock, like the blue box Atherns. As the market drove the direction, more and more people wanted locos and rolling stock to be more “scale and accurate”. Now that is basically all you get, I’m not complaining since I dont have the time to detail my stuff, it is nice to have it ready to go. The problem is if we ask for this same type of stuff in LS then manufactors will be forced to concentrate on a specific scale and the price will drastically increase. I see this starting to happen in LS right now.

#13

Jake,

Yep, and look what happened in HO, prices went thru the ceiling now some are crying on the MR forum how expensive their model trains have gotten and that the hobby is rapidly becoming unaffordable, its becoming a question of “be carefull what you wish for” coming true in LS. Luckily I have all and more that I’ll ever need, I’d like a Lyn or a Forney (LGB or HLW) but can live without. I can remember when Bachmann was eating LGBs lunch pricewise, now LGB is becoming more affordable than alot of Bachmanns stuff. Whoda seen that coming?

#14

I don’t know guys, the original poster is concerned Bachmann has neglected 1:22.5 and he may be right. I do hear of a new motor/drive for the 10 wheeler but that’s about it.

As far as “getting what we asked for”, well that does not ring quite true. Bachmann still makes Big Haulers, and you can buy them for a fair price. They even have a nice little mechanical with four ore cars for under 2 bills. Piko starter sets with American stock are well under $200.00 on line. Want Euro?..Newquida has you covered. It’s out there, big and small price tags. None of these examples have “fancy” electronics.

I think there is room in the market for all price ranges, just some of our favorite manufacturers have chosen a new direction.

#15

The funny thing about Bachmann is - if you read the reviews - you’d think ALL they know how to do is screw the pooch. Maybe they do have an uncanny knack for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Maybe they just cut corners in the wrong places. Or maybe some folks just expect a Bentley for the price of a clapped out Yugo. - and are upset when they get what they paid for.

An all new SIXTH drive for the bug mauler is ok (maybe they finally got it ‘right’? hohoho!)… but cynical me also asks “Will they replace that nasty coal pile still left over from the 1st gen, and fix the pony truck, too?”… A different cab for the Indy would have been nice, too. ---- I’ll probably eventually get one of those, but only because I have a Delton c-16 cab and tender shell that I’ve been saving just for that specific project. And, yes, any circuit boards I encounter will be ripped out along the way… but it isn’t worth crying over.

See, the funny thing about factory electronics is… they may charge you $100 for them separately, but the loco would probably only be $20 less without them. Rip and toss? naw - rip and put on fleabay w/ a 99c start… somebody else might want/be able to use them.

#16

When the Lynn was rereleased it was categorised in the ‘Big Hauler’ range to ‘keep prices down’. Those who have viewed the Lynn up close and personal will testament to the high quality level of the locomotive, which in reality is ‘Spectrum’ quality. Now placing a loco in either category determines the end price. Is this reality or merely a ‘book keeping’ exercise in Philly. There is no way that the mudhen K-27 cost the same to produce as the Forney or the ‘new’ Climax and yet the been counters placed them all in the same price category. The three truck Shay (which many wanted) was betrayed by its poor build quality and ‘inhouse’ electronics. A non-sound version sells for $300 upwards and a sound version around $400 upwards. Philly will no doubt blame the modeller for the poor market performance of the model. They will claim that they gave the market what they really wanted.

Look to the mudhen, reasonably priced, no expensive factory sound and basically ‘sold out’. Prices have hardly altered since introduction and remain static from $675 upwards. Forney was way overpriced for the market and took a dive with current prices around $430 upwards. Unfortunately, for us, the ‘new’ Climax will take a similar plunge and be sold off at the major discount stores or on eBay.

As Vic has stated, ‘h.o.’ prices have similarly escalated, with a reasonable ‘h.o.’ loco with sound and DCC onboard, costing around $300 upwards. A similar vein runs through most of these price increases when one looks to the onboard electronic, whether, ‘N’, ‘h.o.’ or largescale. I let you come to the same conclusion as I have. One supplier has dominated the market. Have they been responsible for the massive price increases or is it our greed to have the latest and the best goodies factory-supplied at the electronics supplier’s price. I know that if the largescale Forney was ‘competitively’ priced then I would have purchased several. Sure, the Anniversary has already amortised its tooling costs and were offered at good prices over the years (the market price, MSRP is still the same as around eight years ago) and the Forney is new tooling, so one would expect to pay a margin for being new, but how does one justify a three fold price increase for a loco with no more complexity than the humbe Annie? That being said, try and get a new Annie these days forless than MSRP! No more ‘sreet prices’.

Now to the reason for my initial posting. since 1989, basically the only actually new product in 1/22.5 scale has been the mid-1990’s Lynn and the original issue Porter with the poor quality Lynn drive from the same period. That adds up to exactly NO new release since the mid-1990’s. That is over 15 years since something new was released. I know the Bug Mauler went through it’s completely retooled 2001 incantation and emerged as the Anniversary model and that the Porter received a slightly better drive. Later Porters were marketed under the 1/20.3 banner so do not count.

I feel Bachmann is shedding its ‘follow the leader’ 1/22.5 position and decided that 1/20.3 was the defacto ‘largescale’, going flat out introducing product to the market to overshadow its main contender Accucraft/AMS. It really has become a tug of war in the larger scale at the expense of those loyay supporters who prefer 1/22.5 scale. Remeber nothing new in over 15 years. Says a lot about the market philosophy in Philly.

#17

I think there should be options, like on a car.
(Electronics’s–not the body)

  1. Bare bones, with nothing in it: two wires running up from the motor block.
    That’s what I’d buy.

  2. Simple track powered and head light

  3. Flashing pan, smoke, Drop in Sup socket, Dcc, all that stuff ready to go.

#18

but John…
Then they’d be stuck with bunches of option 3! (which only cost them pennies to add)

Seriously, though. It probably isn’t cost effective to do that, unless you want to spend even more. Cars are $20K+. - How many toy locomotives would you buy at that price?

A big part of the ‘problem’ is the era of cheap Chinese crap is ending. The dollar is in the toilet, and may get worse. Fuel and material costs are rising. AND the Chinese workers have begun to find their voice and demand higher wages… just like Japan, Taiwan, and Korea before them - soon it won’t be a source for exploitable labor. — next stop, Cambodia?

#19

Get ready for “Made in Somalia” ?

#20
Victor Smith said:
Get ready for "Made in Somalia" ?
Yeah, but it would probably just be pirated, though. :P