Large Scale Central

Bachmann K-27 Sound, R/C, and Battery conversion?

Howdy folks! Well, I am just getting started on my outdoor railroad. Lots of weed pulling, etc.
I have a 72’ loop of track down and have been doing a little test running of my brand new Bachmann K-27. So far, it’s running fine but I do see a Eddington gear box in it’s future.

Here’s the main focus of my post: The K-27 has been out for a number of years now, and hopefully, there has been enough time for good sound, R/C, and battery solutions to have been developed by the community.

Question posed: If you had a brand new K-27 as I do and were going to add sound, R/C and battery operation, what would you do? Ease of installation (plug and play or as close as possible) is an important aspect. Of secondary importance, although certainly not irrelevant, would be price.

So, chime in with your opinions and experiences. Also, please indicate where you prefer to buy any components so I can get 'em too!

Thanks! :slight_smile:

-Woody

I believe the simplest solution is use a QSI Titan. The Titan was developed to use the board in the tender. You pull the dummy plug off and insert the Titan. Here is a list of things you need:

  1. QSI Titan

  2. G-wire receiver (also QSI)

  3. NCE G-Wire Controller or CVP Airwire Controller

  4. Batteries

  5. Speaker

As far as price…it can add up with this configuration. However it is the most simple installation. No soldiering needed, essentially. The Bachman board in the tender can be used for all the connections. There is a battery screw terminal, a switch to switch to battery, yet keep it able to run track powered. The Titan connects into the top of the board and the g-wire connects to the board.

Next option. Phoenix sound and Airwire This is what you need.

  1. Phoenix PB8 sound board

  2. CVP Airwire G3 controller

  3. NCE G-wire or CVP Airwire Controller

  4. Batteries

  5. Speaker

This option will require some soldiering. This is the option I used on my K-27, as the Titan was not yet out to market. I used the soldiering tabs on the Dummy plug in the tender so I can still run track powered if I like. Search in this section of the forums for a writeup I did on my installation. This is still an expensive option but with sound installation, you get what you pay for. I believe this installation is a little cheaper than the Titan install but requires more skill to install.

A variation on the Airwire install is use a different sound decoder instead of the Phoenix. The beauty of the Airwire system is you can connect a DCC sound decoder to it. So you can use a Soundtraxx Tsunami decoder for the sound or something else. I have not done it but others here have. Again, will take a little more skill.

This is getting long, but you asked a real general question. So I’m trying to put out as much info as I can so you can make an informed descision.

Next lets talk about batteries…there is a lot of opinions on this. I use 14.8V batteries on all my locos. This keeps things simple when I charge my batteries.

I also use Lith-Ion. It has been talked about to death here. My $0.02, I use Lith-Ion for the the advantages of them keeping thier charge and the fact they dont develop a memory. Others say be careful of fire danger, and I understand it. But, if we look around our house we see lith-ion batteries used all over. SO…make your own conclusions on that.

Back to the voltage, this is what you can expect for available power for the loco to use. The 14.8V works well for me I get a good speed and have plenty avaiable for running sound, lights and smoke.

Next, the rating on the batteries, this is measured in mAh. I can say on my K-27 I used 1 14.8V 2400 mAh battery and I was only getting around 1.5-2.0 hours per charge. I added another 14.8v 2400mAh battery and I now get around 4 hours (plenty for me). So yes mAh is accumulative. You can connect additional batteries to get more run time. JUST MAKE SURE THE CHEMISTRY AND THE VOLTAGE MATCH!

Next Controller, I have both the CVP T5000 and the NCE G-wire. I like using the T5000 for ease of use. But, I think the NCE has more features. Take it as you will.

Finally, there are other R/C systems out there and they are probably just fine, but I have no experience with them so I cant give you any first hand info.

There are detractors but I chose the Revolution with generic steam-sounds. This of course requires you use the Revolution Tx but it meets all of your requirements…It’s total ‘plug-n-ply’ and VERY affordable.

It is in my own K-27 now (sound and control for less than $100.00 bucks).

Regarding Mr. Eddington’s drive…He was visiting my layout with one of his K’s and I have to say the drive was amazing! His was equipped with a Phoenix system and the combination was inspiring. If there was a loco to spend the big sound/drive bucks on I’d say it was the Bachmann K-27!

Woody,

IF time is not of the essence for the gear drive, hold off a bit. I was talking to Rodney on the phone yesterday, and he told me he was working on a ‘direct replacement’ drive for the K27. I understood that to mean take out the Bachmann and install R& K drive. No words as to price or when, but I have told you what I know. I have one of his gearboxes ready to install, a Phoenix PB11, and Airwire R/C. Just waiting for the batteries and charger (will be ordering today).

As an aside note, I went with the Airwire after waiting like 8-10 months for Aristo to have the Revolution available. Too many delivery excuses for me. Just my experience, yours may vary.

Bob C.

PS: Phoenix is the only sound card available with sounds directly from a K27. I believe they were recorded from the 463 at Durango and Silverton before she was taken out of service. If I am askew I am sure someone will correct me.

I think the Tsunmi also has actual K-27 recordings but I’m not 100%.

As for Rodney’s development, I think he is a ways out. He still has to test it and he said he has other projects going first.

I make a Plug’n’Play system for all locos equipped with a standard PnP socket.
I have converted dozens of K27’s to battery R/C.
You can see how I have some of them by going to the RCS website, then “Instructions”, then "How To’s.
I use an recommend Spektrum R/C and Phoenix sound for the lowest cost way of doing it.

There are three articles on our club web site about the Bachmann K-27.

One offers solutions to the clearance problems encountered after installing the R and K Railroad Products reduction gearbox.

http://ovgrs.editme.com/K27Gearbox

(http://ovgrs.editme.com/files/K27Gearbox/Wires.jpg)

The second details the installation of lithium-ion battery power and radio control using the Revolution receiver in the Plug and Play socket.

http://ovgrs.editme.com/BachmannK27

(http://ovgrs.editme.com/files/BachmannK27/Closed.jpg)

The third details instructions on how to install and wire a Phoenix Sound P8 sound board.

http://ovgrs.editme.com/P8SoundK27

(http://ovgrs.editme.com/files/P8SoundK27/Complete.jpg)

This article includes instructions on how to assemble a small circuit board that will allow the use of the Bachmann optical sensors to trigger the P8 chuff sounds, and use two Revolution throttle keys to raise and lower the sound volume.

I would add that I used Paul’s circuit board and adapted it to my installation. It works great and I dont need to use the reed switch and magnets.

There are differences in sound quality between the decoders suggested, so I would try to listen to each, or get links to hear the sounds on the web.

Also, some units have special features, for example the QSI can be set to exactly synchronize chuff rate with the driver rpm without using external “sensors”

Also explore the option of using the built in chuff “sensor” circuitry to give precise chuffs versus the actual position of the “piston” in the cylinder.

These are options that further distinguish one solution from another. The differences are very important to some, and not important to others.

All I can say is try to hear them first.

Greg

Actually it is Tony’s circuit. I first found a schematic of it the Phoenix Sound web site but I couldn’t figure it out.

Doug remembered Tony had made the Bachmann optical sensors work with Phoenix Sound, so we went to his site. He had a picture of the transistor and capacitor there that made it easy to understand. As they say, “A picture is worth a thousand words”; but I can’t find it. :frowning:

Currently my computer is still down with bad malware infections so I cannot easily dig up the K-27 mods using this crappy I Phone platform. I may have it back later today.
In the meantime you can find the mods by going to “Instructions” then “Accessories” then #BIK-K27 or look up the #PRO-PnP page.

This stupid phone will not allow me to correct that way of locating the information.
Go to “Instructions” then “Current ESC’s” then “BK-PnP”.

This was the part of the diagram that turned on the lights for Doug and I.

http://ovgrs.editme.com/files/P8SoundK27/Chuff.bmp

First question: how OC are you about being able to control every last light, sound, and super-fine-tune motor performance of your locomotives?

If the answer is “very,” then your easiest option is Titan/G-wire combination. Plug it in, set the Titan for Airwire control, and you’re off and running. Airwire/Phoenix would be my next choice, but it’s not "plug-n-play. It is easy enough to wire in given that all the pertinent connections can be made to the solder pads on the socket board. Airwire, in their new G-3 instructions, also shows how to use a HO Tsunami decoder as a sound system as a less expensive option than the Phoenix. The Tsunami is fairly full-featured in its own right in terms of sounds, though I’m not positive some of the BEMF load-sensitive features will work correctly using the board in this environment. It’s on my “short list” of things to experiment with, though. Note that the sound volume of the HO Tsunami will likely be less than that of the Phoenix, QSI, or other dedicated large scale board.

Another slightly unorthodox method would be to use the G-2 as a dedicated 3-amp DCC command station, then power the motor/sound decoder of your choice via that. The decoder in this case can be a plug-n-play decoder, or you can wire it directly as well. Soundtraxx will be releasing their 4-amp Tsunami in a matter of weeks, and there are others as well. (I played with an ESU LokSound board at a show the other day that was pretty slick!) Note: you must use the older (now discontinued, naturally) G-2 board for this, as the newer G-3 board only allows 1.5 amps on the DCC booster output. According to QSI’s web site, you can wire the G-wire receiver to act as a generic DCC command station which can be used to run any DCC decoder. There are some caveats, as you’ve got to be able to locate more than just the track input connections on the decoder. I e-mailed QSI for more information on this, but have yet to get a response. Someday, someone will introduce a dedicated high-amp on-board receiver/command station…

If you’re not quite so OC about controlling every last piece of technology, but still want top-drawer sound and easy control of this and other locos, then the Aristo Revolution/Phoenix combination is a good one to look at. A few caveats with this; the Revolution may or may not pass battery voltage forward to the electronics in the K-27 without jumpers from the battery inputs to the B+ and Ground terminals on the socket board. I’ve always had to jumper the connections, though from what I’ve read, the plug-in board is supposed to make that connection by itself. Try it. If you get the headlights and cooling fan when you turn on the power, then it’s working. Otherwise, jumper the connections. Without that power, you don’t get power to the optical chuff circuitry. You do need the inverter circuit on the chuff trigger mentioned above.

If you just want a very vanilla sound, then you can use Aristo’s steam sound that comes equipped on their decoders. Not my cup of tea, but it’s there as an option.

And as Tony mentioned, his control will work very well with Phoenix as well. You lose some of the motor control customization, a few external trigger capabilities, and the ability to easily consist locos, but if you don’t need it, it’s not an issue.

In terms of the sounds themselves, quite frankly, I don’t think you’re going to be disappointed with the sounds from any of the big players. Most of them now let you change sounds anyway, so if you don’t like the whistle, change it for one you do like. Depending on the particular system, you can either swap out individual components, or you have to swap out the entire sound file. You can hear samples on the manufacturer’s web sites, though not all their sounds are represented. I’ve been known to spend hours on end in the workshop with my loco connected to my PC “tweaking” the sounds for optimal performance. (I highly recommend getting the programming interface for any system you buy if there’s one available.) Most also have some degree of “load sensitive” chuff (or an emulation thereof) where the sound of the chuff varies in response to acceleration, deceleration, speed, etc. The amount of this effect can usually be dialed in via the programming interface.

Cost? Airwire/Phoenix and Titan/G-wire are both going to run you around $300 for the combination. Going with the Revolution/Phoenix drops maybe $50 off of that. (All prices do not include the cost of the transmitter.)

Quirks:

No system is without fault… Here are some that I’ve noticed in terms of sound control.

Revolution: The function triggers do not fire quickly enough to trigger the “short” whistle recordings used by Phoenix on some of their sound files. Not all sound files have different “short” and “long” whistle recordings (they are–thankfully–recorded from the same whistle), but for those that do, you cannot access them via the Revolution function triggers. (Oddly, if you switch the whistle to “latching” instead of “momentary,” and quickly double-punch the function button, you can… Go figure! But that’s counter-intuitive when blowing a whistle…)

Titan: The Titan also has separate “long” and “short” whistle recordings. Some don’t sound remotely the same, like they were recorded from different whistles. Trust your ear. If it sounds quirky, pick a different one.

While I’m glad to see the Titan now include the automatic directional whistle signals, there appears no way of actually adjusting the timing of them. On one, they sound very slowly; almost a full second between each toot. On another, it’s quicker. The CV that would seem to adjust it doesn’t have any effect at all.

G-wire: Depending on the board being controlled, there’s sometimes a “pregnant pause” between when you press the whistle button and when you hear actually play. The degree to which this delay exists seems dependent on the board being controlled. It’s not long; maybe half a second to a second. I have not tried the G-wire with the Titan, so I cannot speak to that combination. With the G-wire/Quantum combination, it was noticeable, and a little less so on the G-wire/Airwire/Phoenix combination.

Airwire: When using the Airwire with the older Quantum boards, sometimes the whistle gets “stuck.” I have not noticed this with the new Titan boards. With the Phoenix (and this could just be my particular transmitter), I’ll press one function button and get the sound for another.

Phoenix: Adjusting the Johnson Bar effect can be tricky. Too much, and your loco gets a tad flatulent when it slows down. Too little, and there’s no audible difference at all. There are factors that work in conjunction with one another in terms of the light/heavy chuff values and the Johnson bar effect values. I have yet to detect any correlation, and every sound file behaves differently.I just play with it until it sounds good.

Also, the “blower hiss” only comes on when the generator is not running, and is inconsistent when it does come on. There are times when I stop the locomotive, and it’s absolutely silent, then after a while the hiss starts up again. Since most of my locos are pre-electricity, I can’t really have the generator running. However, I do keep it running very quietly in the background (about 20%) so there’s at least some sound playing when the loco’s stopped.

None of these quirks are remotely dealbreakers, though I have been known to swap control systems around to have an Airwire board to interface with the Phoenix sound files that have “short” whistles I particularly like. They’re just little details.

Bottom line from my perspective, I don’t think you’re going to go wrong with any of the combinations mentioned above. They’re all 95% solid, and the K is such a smooth runner in its own right (even without Rodney’s gearbox) that you’ll get good control out of it regardless. If you’ve got steep grades and like to “turn 'em on and watch 'em run,” you may find the motor control on the Airwire or Titan boards, with their BEMF speed control, able to keep things on a more even keel.

Later,

K

Thanks for all the info everyone! I like the ease of the Titan/air-wire install, but I gotta say, the Phoenix sound system sounds best to my ear. I can’t seem to find any samples to the Titan sound so I cant compare it. Does any body have any opinions on the Titan sound?

Thanks again,

Woody

Woody I have a Titan installed in my Bachmann C-19. The generic sound file is the same for the C-19 and the K-27, according to QSI.

I can say that I have about 75% hearing in the left ear so I cant always tell much of a difference. I tried both my K-27 with Phoenix and my C-19 with a Titan and I cant tell much of a difference in sound, both sound real good.

I also tried the quirk that Kevin said about the delay with my G-wire and Titan and I dont really notice the delay, the sound plays pretty much immediately when I push the button.

Woody, try this link for the QSI sounds:

http://www.qsisolutions.com/sounds/index.html

It’d be great if it were intuitive to get to it on QSI’s web page, but…

Anyway, back to the sounds.

QSI has very good sound quality, mostly on par with Phoenix, some better, some worse.

Note: The “Titan” is capable of handling their new higher quality sounds (the “Q3” files), though at this point, they only have one available; an Alco. These are being billed as being far superior to the old files. I’ve not heard them myself, and while they’re good about putting comparisons on YouTube comparing their new sounds with the competition, they have yet to show a video with the new sounds vs. their old ones. It’s going to be a Looooooonnnnnnnngggggggg time before we see the steam sounds upgraded, and even then, it’s going to be even longer before the “new” library is nearly as extensive as the “old.”

But–again–ain’t nothin’ wrong with the old, so there you are…

One thing with the new Titan–it’s got a 2-channel audio output, so you can map sounds to one speaker or another (or blend them between the two) to make it sound like certain sounds are coming from different places within the locomotive. This is arguably more effective on diesels or self-contained steamers like Shays and Climaxes instead of locos where the “big” speaker is in the tender, but it’s still pretty cool to play with. I’ve got a 40-ton diesel and a Climax pimped out thus. You really can tell from about 10’ away, though beyond that it all blends together.

Later,

K

I’ve heard them and they are better than any other decoder I’ve heard. I’ve been involved in beta testing of the QSI (because I volunteered) and then new “ET” sound files are a higher bit rate, bettery dynamic range, and more isolation of sounds, i.e. the locomotives often have 12 separate mikes on them to record the sounds.

After all that, they really do sound better, and don’t have gobs of that phony “reverberation” that is usually used to make sound “bigger”.

This is not because I’m a proponent and beta tester, I’m a proponent and beta tester BECAUSE of all the improvements and work they have put into this newest generation decoder. It does things in a completely different way than the “looping playback” of all other decoders.

You can download the programming file for free from the QSI site, and all the sound files and play them on your PC, bell, whistle, speed…

Also, I hear what Kevin is saying about timing on sound files… I’ll just tell you I’m much closer to what is really going on there, so I have a different take on the “schedule” he is alluding to.

If you need a hand, or have more questions, email me privately and I’ll walk you through it… it’s really simple and fun to hear some of the different prime movers, etc.

Greg

Kevin Strong said:

SNIP

And as Tony mentioned, his control will work very well with Phoenix as well. You lose some of the motor control customization, a few external trigger capabilities, and the ability to easily consist locos, but if you don’t need it, it’s not an issue.

SNIP

Later,

K

Just a brief explanation of the procedure I use for “consisting” locos with my RCS system.

I rely upon the RX to TX binding process used by various 2.4 GHz R/C systems to add and delete locos from a “consist”. This binding process varies from brand to brand of the 2.4 GHz radios. Wirh some it is a really easy procedure such as the Spektrum DSM2 series (and the Hobby King brand) as you can mount an external switch (my # BINDER) for RX to TX binding. This makes swapping locos between TX’s easy peasy.

Others brands require access to the binding button on the RX which is virtually impossible as they are inside a loco. So adding or deleting locos from a “consist” is impractical.

That is why I recommend the Spektrum DSM2 R/C systems.

My customers are usually quite happy with the four programmable sound grigger functions.

There are also 2 servo outputs which would permit an operator to use the new KD servo based uncoupling method.

Well, y’all have given me plenty of good leads to investigate. Thanks Kevin for the link to the QSI sounds. For some reason I couldn’t get them to play on one of my computers. They came up fine on my desktop though, and I found some youtube videos where the sound systems were identified so I could do some comparison.

The ease of the Titan install is very appealing, but I just can’t get over the fact that the Phoenix sounds better to me. I suppose it’s because they used actual live K-27 sound samples. Since I am a bit of a stickler for authenticity that really appeals to me! I’m pretty handy with a soldering iron, so I don’t find the Airwire/Phoenix install to be too intimidating. I would like to use the optical sensors in the pistons to trigger the chuff. Thanks Tony and Paul for the info on that.

Next step is to gather all the necessary stuff. Thanks Jake for the list of items applicable to each install. That is real handy!!

Thanks again to all who have chimed in here!!

-Woody