Zbigniew Struzik said:Zubi, I meant that they will go the way of LGB but for different reasons. You cant keep trying to flog sub standard products forever and hope to survive. If Bachmann got the quality right there would be nothing to touch them. (unless you want to pay 4 grand for brass) For example, Whose 1:20.3 boxcar is better? Bachmanns or AMS/Accucraft?John Anthony said:John, why do you think that? LGB service was close to perfect. Their products were close to perfect in terms of reliability and durability. They saturated their segment of the hobby and went bankrupt, this happens - you cannot make a living from just servicing 25 years old locomotives, especially if you do this for free... Selling cheep and cheerful rubbish on the other hand, charging for parts, service and keeping you on your toes while fixing it, seems to work - people just go and buy some more of it... It seems counterintuitive but it appeals to a very wide range of customers. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
Hello all, If Bachmann dont sort this attitude out, they will go the way of LGB. [...]
John Bouck said:John, that Pacer was really nice!! I agree. Zubi
I wish I had an AMC Pacer. :) :) They customize up real good.
John Anthony said:John, we will see. But unless AMS will start making locomotives in the same price range as Bachmann, there will be "nothing to touch them". They have virtually no competition in narrow gauge steam and, therefore, they dictate the rules not the market. Best, Zubi
Zubi, I meant that they will go the way of LGB but for different reasons. You cant keep trying to flog sub standard products forever and hope to survive. If Bachmann got the quality right there would be nothing to touch them. (unless you want to pay 4 grand for brass) For example, Whose 1:20.3 boxcar is better? Bachmanns or AMS/Accucraft?
Zbigniew Struzik said:Zubi, the "free" service on any LGB product was reflected in the purchase price. It was about as "free" as a "free lunch". ;) :)John Anthony said:John, why do you think that? LGB service was close to perfect. Their products were close to perfect in terms of reliability and durability. They saturated their segment of the hobby and went bankrupt, this happens - you cannot make a living from just servicing 25 years old locomotives, especially if you do this for free... Selling cheep and cheerful rubbish on the other hand, charging for parts, service and keeping you on your toes while fixing it, seems to work - people just go and buy some more of it... It seems counterintuitive but it appeals to a very wide range of customers. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
Hello all, If Bachmann dont sort this attitude out, they will go the way of LGB. [...]
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:Hans-Joerg, This is as maybe. No single commercial company sells their products at cost, the very reason for their existence is not to make you happy but to make money. What they do with their profits is entirely up to them. But suppose you are correct. This makes no difference to my case, because by calculating a realistic price which includes projected future service costs, the company predetermines their market and limits the range of customers. Quite frankly, I doubt that these costs were very high, I would be very surprised if on average these costs would be higher than 2% of the item price in case of LGB. Let us be honest about this, LGB could afford this 'free lunch' because they were not handing out many of them. Now let us go back to Bachmann, people are lured by cheap product, but they are surprised when they have to pay disproportionate costs for service, etc. This is not rational, but this is people's mentality. There are some but not many who say "I cannot afford buying cheap things". If Bachmann were to calculate the cost of their locomotives to include all the service costs, their prices would double, at least. I remember an excellent advert by LGB some ten or more years ago, where they compared the price of their LGB Mogul with that of the Ten Wheeler by Bachmann. By the time the said Ten Wheeler got all the upgrades, sound, BBT drive, etc. the price was comparable to that of the Mogul. Except, it was still the same piece of rubbish you started with. Best, Zubi
Zubi, the "free" service on any LGB product was reflected in the purchase price. It was about as "free" as a "free lunch". ;) :)
I would never call a BBT upgraded Bug Mauler “the same rubbish”.
If you drop a Ferrari drivetrain onto a Corvette frame and body its not exactly a Chevy anymore is it 
Zbigniew Struzik said:And you, sir, with all due respect, don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. Again.
I remember an excellent advert by LGB some ten or more years ago, where they compared the price of their LGB Mogul with that of the Ten Wheeler by Bachmann. By the time the said Ten Wheeler got all the upgrades, sound, BBT drive, etc. the price was comparable to that of the Mogul. Except, it was still the same piece of rubbish you started with. Best, Zubi
Zubi,
Since you are referring to a Bachmann Big Hauler, with one of my drives and Phoenix Sound systems, it seems I should respond to your insult. You are implying that no matter what is done to a “problematic” product, it is still no better than it was when you started.
Just a couple of notes: 1993/94 was my best production year. The cost of a BBT drive in those days was $149.95 to $174.95. A Phoenix sound system was about $200.00. The LGB moguls were running from the $600.00 to 1400.00. How do you want to spend your money?
One of the issues I have been asked by an owner of a Bachmann Big Hauler in those days, I don’t know if I want to put that much money in a Bachmann. I would ask, do you like the Bachmann? Generally, “yes”. Would you like it better if it were more reliable? “Yes”. Then it is your decision.
I know that I have units 15 and 16 years old still running. Also, I believe I have the best warranty in the industry.
I warrant the drive not the owner, I don’t need a receipt. You pay the shipping to me, I fix and I pay the shipping back to you. The only time I charge for parts is if there has been visible evidence of abuse (or you tried to fix it and destroyed something in the process.
Barry - BBT
Barry Olsen said:
Zubi,Since you are referring to a Bachmann Big Hauler, with one of my drives and Phoenix Sound systems, it seems I should respond to your insult. You are implying that no matter what is done to a “problematic” product, it is still no better than it was when you started.
Barry - BBT
Barry, Not quite. I should have made it clear that “the same piece of rubbish” refers to whatever is left of the Ten Wheeler. I do not want to involve your drive in the discussion of quality, and service. It may be perfect, but this is immaterial, because we are not discussing your drive or your aftermarket service. We can discuss this in another thread;-) Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
Curmudgeon said:Dear Curmee, Perhaps you have not been in the hobby for long enough, or your memory is failing you, but this was a really good advert! I hope someone can post a copy as I do not keep GR that old here in Tokyo, Enjoy! ZubiZbigniew Struzik said:And you, sir, with all due respect, don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. Again.
I remember an excellent advert by LGB some ten or more years ago, where they compared the price of their LGB Mogul with that of the Ten Wheeler by Bachmann. By the time the said Ten Wheeler got all the upgrades, sound, BBT drive, etc. the price was comparable to that of the Mogul. Except, it was still the same piece of rubbish you started with. Best, Zubi
Quote:Au contraire. The market still dictates the success or failure of a product. A manufacturer can try to introduce new features to the market, but those features have to be accepted by the consumer. If they're not, the product doesn't sell and it's back to the drawing board (or bankruptcy court). Whether or not viable competition exists really doesn't play into the equation. Look at the center-cab diesel. Miserable flop, that was. No competition anywhere for that genre of locomotive, so it could have been a home run. Alas, the choice of prototype was ill-thought, and the entire thing was rejected by the consumer.
... therefore, they dictate the rules not the market.
Quote:Only in the aesthetic sense. The early Big Hauler stuff could definitely have benefitted from a can of Krylon. Subsequent generations of the product certainly took that into account, leading ultimately to the anniversary edition. In fairness, though, LGB's details were almost as coarse. The original mogul with a fire engine red boiler? That, too, was easy fodder for the paint shop. Both companies quickly learned the value of better paint schemes.
... it was still the same piece of rubbish you started with.
Getting back to the original topic, I’ve never personally dealt with any of the manufacturers’ service departments, but the first thing I do to any loco I buy is void the warranty via wire cutters and a razor saw. Chances are good that I can’t fit the loco back into the shipping box once I’m done with it. But the importance of fast, friendly customer service cannot be overstated. It’s a lesson that each and every manufacturer needs to keep fresh on their minds.
Later,
K
Kevin Strong said:Kevin, here is a citation from Wikipedia defining monopoly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly (highlighting by ZS): "In economics, a monopoly (from Greek monos , alone or single + polein , to sell) exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient ***control*** over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it.[1] Monopolies are thus characterized by a ***lack of*** economic competition for the good or service that they provide and a lack of viable substitute goods."Quote:Au contraire.
... therefore, they dictate the rules not the market.
If you have novel insights into how monopoly works, please share them on economic forums, etc. There is definitely enough interest in the topic, however, it may be a bit hard to rewrite basics. Best, Zubi
The market does, to a point, reflect what is produced. Remember when the Vulcan was killed off (only seven prototype of which only two from memory were narrow-gauge), replaced by a one-off railtruck. Remember when the 3-truck was only coming with onboard Tsunami and DCC? The market did call for a ‘K’, but an obscure Mallett??? The 3-truck was a logical progression of the two-truck Shay (but could have been handled differently from a public relations point.
The old 45-tonner was announced and shown back in the 90’s and then shelved. Did the market discourage its release, back then? I like the 45-tonner (apart from its many flaws) and feel that Bachmann had a potential market in the standard-gauge 1/20.3 market which was not taken up. All the engineering had been done for a standard-gauge locomotive. Perhaps the R1 (four foot ) crowd were not ready just yet to give up their beloved sharp curves without much kicking and screaming.
Why is it that as locomotives become more complicated, the servicing/repair potential diminishes? As it would be totally unrealistic for me to ship a loco to Philly (one way fare more than the cost of an Annie), I have learned to repair or recycle my Bachmann. Once rebuilt, the Annie does become very reliable.
Zubi;
Now you insult my tester, TOC. You suggest we have not been in the hobby long enough to have credibility.
I began in 1988, I’ll let TOC establish his own date, but as I recall it was before me. Regardless, it is more important to be correct than earliest.
Your position “on the mount” is getting a bit tiring.
Barry - BBT
Doesn’t matter if your product costs $2.00 or $2,000.
If your product has a warranty, you should stand behind it and make the customers
experience as pleasant as possible.
If what happened to Bob and John happened to me, Bachmann would never get another nickel from me.
Ralph
Victor Smith said:
I would never call a BBT upgraded Bug Mauler "the same rubbish".If you drop a Ferrari drivetrain onto a Corvette frame and body its not exactly a Chevy anymore is it
No, you are right, it would no longer be a Vette. It would be a slower, less dependable sports car!
I know what you meant…but 638 rwhp!
Not to mention you’d have to trash a perfectly good Ferrari
(http://www.nofenders.net/uploaded_images/Ferrari-California-Spyder-731997.jpg)
One of my most personally desired cars… Bueller?
Zubi, it’s not monopolies in play, but the even more basic laws of supply and demand. If no one wants the product, the seller loses its leverage in negotiating terms. It’s only through the value of the product being sold that monopolies (or sellers in general) gain power. It’s the market that determines if a product has value, not the manufacturer. One need look no further than today’s headlines to see that in play.
Later,
K
Zbigniew Struzik said:Longer than you, bucko, longer than you. And, that stew-pid advertisement pushed the sales of BBT units so far over the top is was difficult to keep up.Curmudgeon said:Dear Curmee, Perhaps you have not been in the hobby for long enough, or your memory is failing you, but this was a really good advert! I hope someone can post a copy as I do not keep GR that old here in Tokyo, Enjoy! ZubiZbigniew Struzik said:And you, sir, with all due respect, don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. Again.
I remember an excellent advert by LGB some ten or more years ago, where they compared the price of their LGB Mogul with that of the Ten Wheeler by Bachmann. By the time the said Ten Wheeler got all the upgrades, sound, BBT drive, etc. the price was comparable to that of the Mogul. Except, it was still the same piece of rubbish you started with. Best, Zubi
You ever seen a BBT drive?
Bets are you are simply talking out your rectal orofice again.
You have no idea.
Until you do, zip it.
Curmudgeon said:Sir - I've been into large-scale model railways since my 21st birthday, March 2, 1967, when I walked into Hamley's Toy Store in Regents Street London, and walked out again with what would now be called the original LGB starter set. Still got the Stainz that came in it, too.
...You ever seen a BBT drive?
But neither over over here in Yoorup or at any time in my life that I have been in Canada or the USA, have I ever encountered one of Barry’s replacement mechanisms. I’m not a betting man, but I’m pretty sure that my esteemed colleague in Tokyo with his truly enormous collection of mainly 1/22.5 high-end trains, hasn’t either.
Please let’s keep the tone of this discussion in a gentlemanly fashion. We Europeans can’t know everything that happens over on your side of the water, or the names and addresses of every one-man show specialist like Barry and what, I can see from his site, is an undoubteldy fine range of products that take the Bachmann sow’s ear models into the realms of silk purses - at a price.
If I ever needed to replace the mechanical bits on my Annie, the cost of such a conversion by the time it gets here over here makes it truly uneconomical - and the $350+ for the 2-8-0 mechanism is totally out of the question - by the time that got to my door step I’d be looking at pretty much double that figure.
tac
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