Large Scale Central

Aristocraft BNSF Dash 9 Motor Failure

General Discussion
#61

One thing that the Aristo motors have is the slots for cooling and an internal fan… Normally these motors are bulletproof.

I would be surprised if the Bachmann trolley motor was as tough, especially it was never designed to pull any cars, while the 3 axle Aristo locos are workhorses. While I am not a motor expert, I have learned a lot, and besides current draw, you really need the efficiency of the motor, and basically the horsepower and torque vs. the rpm and current draw.

I would be loathe to replace one motor out of 4 unless I knew it was identical… Is this all motivated by trying to find a single motor?

Greg

#62

No,
It’s to try to find replacements for folks who don’t know where to find them and also if we are ever in need of one, we know where to find them as well. Basically, it’s to find a supplier that has this product currently since Aristocraft isn’t around for us to find out any longer.
Ken

#63

Interesting.

I’ve been using Aristo locos for about 17 years, and I keep pretty darn abreast of stuff that breaks, besides my hands on helping others, and reading every forum I can get my hands on, and working closely with Navin all these years, etc. etc.

Other than the bad batch of motors in the GP40, which I believe were counterfeit, I don’t believe I have heard of a motor giving out in the 3 axle blocks. Plenty of gearbox failures, axle failures, power pickup failures, assembly errors, but not the motors themselves. (By the way, Aristo got replacement motors for the entire production run, I believe Kader was “fooled” by a supplier)

I think there’s a good possibility that Kader will make these complete motor blocks available, and from the difficulty of disassembly, my guess that complete blocks are more along the lines of what most consumers can handle.

Greg

#64

This motor was arcing & had a bent shaft as did the other one but I have never had any problems with any Aristocraft equipment until now. I must have been very fortunate but then again I make sure I maintain equipment regularly.
If I feel an improvement is needed, such as grease ports in the 3 axle block gear boxes, I modify whatever is needed so it can be maintained easily. (like applying grease on a maintenance schedule without disassembly)
We have 9 Aristocraft diesels and 2 steam engines and they have run flawlessly with FULL regular cleaning & maintenance, many for over 16 years. Believe me, with as much hours as we’ve put on them in our program, that is nothing short of miraculous, having just these 2 issues.
I really believe your correct about lack of motor problems but I believe we received engines with drive assemblies inaccurately forced into the block resulting in bent shafts from factory employees. They were never abused or dropped and there was very little run time on them but they were arcing, running hot, twice as noisy as the other motors and vibrating some of the handrails out of the slots.
But we’re good to go now! Gary’s motors were perfect running SD45 motors that worked fantastic in the Dash 9 and SD 45 motor blocks and they both pull considerably less amperage. They also run fairly quiet now and no longer get hot, even under a heavy load.
I do hope Kadar produces this motor block again because I think it’s fantastic but it does need a grease port for each gearbox with 3 access holes and plugs in the bottom of the block.
Contrary to common belief, gears don’t stay properly lubricated permanently in a sealed gearbox. I have found the grease, if any is left, all up on the walls of most of the gearboxes I’ve disassembled and the gears completely dry.
Thanks Gary for helping out.
Thanks for your help and information Greg!
If Barry comes up with additional information I’ll post it.
Ken

#65

I agree, have found the grease thrown against the walls, and aristo grease never impressed me. Do you try to fill the gearboxes with grease, and do you disassemble the gearbox to get the old grease out, and the chips from drilling the hole?

Greg

#66

I Don’t fill the gearboxes because I don’t have to. The holes I drill in the bottom of the block and the bottom of the gearbox after full disassembly (which I only do the first time to drill the hole) allow for greasing any time it’s needed wiitout disassembly. As far as grease goes, I have been applying grease (Super Lube from Barry) about once every 28 hours of operation since it seems to stay put on the gears real well. With as many people that run my locomotives I guess I am a little over protective but I think I probably wouldn’t have to grease the gears for 40 or 50 hours normally. I also oil the axle bearings about every 19 hours to reduce wear on the metal axle from the ball bearing contact, which is a little annoying, but I still have not had to replace those on any Aristocraft unit yet either. Knock on wood, so far.
I have one USA SD70 MAC, (Heritage UP/MP) have you had or heard of any issues with cracked plastic axles on those? (if you have any) I had to repair and replace all of the plastic axles in all my USA GP 7’S and 9’s but I have never been aware of this problem in the SD70?
Maybe I should check?
Thanks Greg!
Ken

#67

Wow, I am impressed!

I completely agree with what you are doing on the aristo locos, and they should last forever that way. (My guess your loco with the failed motors was due to misalignment between the motors and gearboxes at time of assembly/manufacture)

I know people that drill holes in the gearboxes (without disassembling) claiming that chips from drilling cannot get in the gearboxes, they are very careful. I’ve drilled a lot of holes in my time, some little bit at least gets into the hole. True, small chips of plastic might not do anything, or right away, but I would disassemble as you do.

Clearly you also understand that you don’t pack gearboxes with grease, it does nothing, you need it on the gears. That puts you in a pretty small group of people who actually understand gearboxes and grease.

also oiling the axles is a trick that few know, but it is a necessity:

on the SD70, I have never seen any diesel from USAT that never had the split axle problem. Typically, since the wheels still turn, and the other wheels pull the loco, many people are unaware they have this issue, until all the axles crack, and they finally notice the reduced pulling power.

It’s a simple inspection by trying to rotate the wheels on an axle in opposite directions, I put one thumb on each wheel… they should not turn independently with heavy pressure.

Unless you apply heavy pressure, you are not duplicating the conditions when the loco is pulling a heavy load. The splines inside the axle casting, when it has split, initially act like a ratchet when they slip, so it’s impossible to notice this visually… the wheels will still turn. I’ve worked on F3’s that of the 8 wheels, only 2 were not slipping.

Greg

#68

Forgot to answer your previous inquiry about packing the gearboxes with grease. Actually, I remove all the original grease and parts after I have disassembled the gearbox, I then reassemble the gearbox with nothing in it and drill my hole. (I actually drill grease access holes in all manufacturers locomotives that we own) I then disassemble it again, clean the plastic chips from inside the gearbox, apply grease to the gears only and reassemble it with a plug. After that I only grease gears themselves.
I appreciate your advice on the SD70 but I’m kinda afraid to look. I will check it thoroughly as you suggested and hopefully I won’t find anything. The good part is that USA is still around to access parts and that drive is MUCH easier to repair, even though parts are a bit pricey.
By the way, nice photo, kinda speaks for itself as to the need for oil on the axles.
Ken

#69

According to Robbie at RLD Hobbies, while Bachmann has been resistant to make another run of Dash 9’s, they did call him and want to know if they should make replacement motor blocks. To which he stated yes, they definatly need to produce replacement motor blocks as they fit more than the Dash 9. The E unit and SD45 use the same basic motor block. SO lets hope this happens and I highly recommend folks email Bachmann thru their website and request replacement motor blocks be produced. Mike the Aspie

#70

Mike Toney said:

According to Robbie at RLD Hobbies, while Bachmann has been resistant to make another run of Dash 9’s, they did call him and want to know if they should make replacement motor blocks. To which he stated yes, they definatly need to produce replacement motor blocks as they fit more than the Dash 9. The E unit and SD45 use the same basic motor block. SO lets hope this happens and I highly recommend folks email Bachmann thru their website and request replacement motor blocks be produced. Mike the Aspie

Robbie also said to me that if they do make them it will not be until this time next year before we see them.

Richard

#71

Good information and advice Mike & Richard. I sure hope they reproduce it.

Also, Greg,
Barry wants me to give you this message,
He says that he agrees with you and everyone in that in his final analysis and comparison between the Bachmann trolley motor and the Aristocraft Dash 9 motor, that he would not use the trolley motor in the Aristocraft 3 axle drive block even though everything seems to match in size, voltage, shaft size, etc.
The reason he sas is partially what you mentioned about RPM’s, torque etc. but also because of a little comparison of the gaps between the poles on each motor as listed below, which is actually the same thing, I guess.
Accurate measurements he took for us.

Bachmann trolley motor gap .066
Aristo. 3 axle drive block motor .033

With the trolley gap being double it looses torque or I guess power.
According to him, less gap=more power and less amps. If I am understanding this right.
So our apologies about the missunderstanding but we were hoping the trolley motor was a good replacement. No such luck!
Oh well!
Ken

#72

No problem, (I think you meant me, not “Gary”) like I said, I do not consider myself an expert in motors, but I’ve done a lot of work with them and learned a lot. Glad to see he found the technical reason for the lower output of the trolley motor. Those Aristo motors are actually quite good.

Some day we will meet in person, and let me tell you my Pittman motor story. I won’t go into it here, because many people think they are the best thing since sliced bread, but there are a ton of gotchas, even in the factory graphs of torque vs rpm vs current… you will laugh but see how “specs” can be misleading. Let’s leave that at the fact that I got one really working well until I melted the insides into a single blob.

Also, while we are on this note: Navin, from Aristo / Crest / Precision RC can rebuild your 3 axle blocks, and he has stock of the gears for the 2 axle motor blocks.

He also has main boards in stock for the SD45, E8, FA, FB, C16 and Dash9. (www.revoelectronics.com)

Greg

#73

Greg,
Yea, I meant you. My apologies, getting my names mixed up agan! Incidentally, you may be aware of this already, but Barry uses Pittman motors in just about everything he builds.
Here’s a short story for you. Barry built 6 drives for, I believe it is called, McKormic Railroad Park down by Phoenix. The drives were installed in 4-6-0’S and 2-8-0 conversions 8 years ago. Now you have to understand that all of these models have Pittman motors, were warrantied by Pittman for a maximum of 100 hours and we’re run at least 5 days a week, during business hours. Barry finally received them back for overhauls this month after 8 years of service and most were still operational. He had to replace one motor in one unit and a few power contacts.
That is a real testimony to the durability and performance of Pittman motors.
As far as Navin goes, I used to be in contact with him quite often when Aristocraft was in business and he was very helpful. I guess I’ll have to look him up again! It’s nice to know some parts are still hangin around out there for those models.
Thanks, Greg!
PS Fixed your name up there.
Ken

#74

Ken,

Since this thread has expanding to include other motors, it may be of interest to see my experiences with Aristo’s GP40 Smoking Motors & Debilitated Wheels

-Ted

#75

Ken, my reference to Pittman concerns certain motors are not really designed for our trains. I know Barry picks the right ones for his conversions.

There are other motors, not suited for our use that some manufacturers have used, and unless you are very careful, they look great on paper… again this is best explained in person, since even the Pittman web site is tricky.

Greg

#76

Ted,
After reading all that, I think I will be safer staying clear of the GP 40. It was an excellent post with great information. However I don’t own one currently but if I ever do, I saved the information.
Thanks!
Greg,
Barry chuckled, because he knows what you are referring to. He does use the correct motors, thank goodness and has a quality product because of it.
That’s really the only experience I have personally with Pittman but I sure love the pulling power.
Ken