Large Scale Central

Argument on another forum, with pedantry

Prototypes
#1

Well, most of us here understand OUR particular kind of humour, or else we wouldn’t actually be here posting some of the stuff that we do and getting away with it. Add to that, of course, that what we do is intended to be fun. That applies, too, to the full-size stuff, although it has to be said that there ARE some pretty peculiar folks out there [present company excepted, of course.]

I’m an occasional poster on another forum here in UK - I say poster, and mean it, as I could not be described as a contributor, except by a liar. Suffice it to say that I throw in the occasional post that serves to remind the others that there IS life outside the LMS, GWR, LNER, et al, that occupies their days…

I’d like to think that I’m a equable soul, and although my choice of US railroads lives firmly on the West Coast, both full-size and NG, the CPR/ONR and others have a firm hold on my heart once I’m north of the border. Meanwhille, back here in yUK, I can concentrate on NG to my heart’s content - with MANY to choose from in a country [Wales] the size of reasonably-sized spread in Montana - I’m never lost wondering what to see next. The turn of the road takes me inevitably to another line, equally as beautiful and fascinating.

So what is THIS post about?

Well, there is something of a kerfuffle going on on the afore-mentioned forum, about a bunch of college students given a project to design a new steam locomotive, and although the actual word ‘heresy’ has not yet appeared, I’m betting that that is behind some of the comments appearing there on catching sight of the efforts of these youngsters.

Inevitably, the subject of the recent totally new-build loco, the A1 Peppercorn loco ‘Tornado’, cropped up, along with the pros and cons of the immensely expensive project that it entailed, unless, of course, $5M is not an expensive project to you. Some of that money was donated by the tac family - a VERY small amount of it, I might add - probably enough to buy a stay-bolt, or fill the sandbox, but I showed willing, even though the end result was pretty small cheese by comparison with my first loves, Royal Hudson #2860 or SP@S #700.

Ater the initial ‘shuffling in the nest’ had died down, one brave soul there offered the opinion you see below, counter to the ethos that inspired the kids and their novelty models -

Quote -

XXXXXXX wroteIf you want a loco for operating [main line] railtours, then you want one with the maximum appeal to the potential customers, hence an existing loco restored or a new build to an existing recognised design.

Nodding sagely as I slusped my morning soop, I added…

I couldn’t agree more. mrs tac, me and the boys, would like to see a nicely restored two-truck Shay, a Heisler or a Climax running over here, and so would more than a few of us. In the case of a Shay being chosen, we’d need a turning Y at one end of the line so that folks rail-fanning got to see the interesting side of the loco from both sides of the track, thereby doubling the amount of scenic views appearing in the inevitable shaky videos [Mornin’, H-J]. With a Heisler or a Climax, of course, the commotion is shared equally on each side [Climax] or underneath and in the middle [Heisler]. Paint scheme of choice, but nothing too fancy - hard-wearing all-black with a few white trimmings and red window frames and pilot beams looks good on all of mine. As a bonus, you’ll have all the sounds and smoke of ‘Mallard’ at 100 mph, but at a more sedate and easily viewable 10 mph. There would be clear value-for-time-spent benefit from having a somewhat slower prototype running on your Class 1 /mainline tracks. The slothe of the train would cut down on a whole lot of shaky videos, too, as you’d have time to set up a vibration-free camera stand between catching your first glimpse in the distance, and the actual run-by somewhat later on… :=)

[My input can be removed by a moderator if it causes offence.]

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
www.ovgrs.org

This was posted in the hope of lightening up the thread, so I’m waiting to see what happens next from the forum management…any signs of incipient humour in the response will be reported here, but I’m not expecting it to happen any time soon.

Best to all

tac etc.

#2

He he should be fun seeing what happens. Maybe WWIII.

#3

Eh, if you are gonna build a new engine, might as well go for the gold… the ACE-3000!

#4

Yup, I was right, the incipient humour content didn’t happen.

tac :frowning:

#5

I like your idea tac, one thing you forgot, if some photographer stopped paying attention to the track he was standing on and a Shay came racing up from behind, (I am assuming he is also deaf as a post) the Shay’s pace would merely rebuff him off to the side without any potential harm.

#6

J.D. Gallaway said:

Eh, if you are gonna build a new engine, might as well go for the gold… the ACE-3000!

Nah Pennsy T-1 so we can show them Brits who really had the worlds fastest teakettle

#7

Ahh, guys…let’s go for nuclear power. If they can do it on a submarine, why not on wheels. Add in the final electric drive, and you have what everyone loves. Add in a steam generator for that mist effect, and paint the whole thing black, with red window frames, and a few white stripes…

There should of course be an electric outlet for the tea kettle, and a good supply of Earl Grey…in the cab…oh, and don’t forget the potty for the crew…

This whole affair would be great. Only requiring refueling once in a generation…

Final touch: a name board, not just a number. Heck; name it after young Terry, or, maybe a dual name like “Terry-Ig” !

#8

I think Father Fred has spent a few too many hours in the downstairs distillery sampling the many aged barrels of fine adult beverage.

T1 has too many difficulties for successful operation in today’s rail service. What about a NYC Niagara? With 80" boxpox drivers and 6000hp boilers they regularly ran in excess of 100mph in service between Harmon and Chicago. The added benefit would be that they SHOULD clear the British loading gauge, I think. They were smallest of the major 4-8-4’s built.

#9

Yep, some of those Brit forum admin/moderators are a funny lot (not hehe or haha), they didn’t appreciate my acerbic humour, either. Looks like they have a CCMic in every corner and taking the mickey is just not on.

Of course they also talk funny on account of that stiff upper lip.

:wink: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

#10

Do not forget the Lynton and Barnstable Railway in North Devon, here in the UK, is busy raising money to build a ‘replica’ Baldwin to replace the loco scrapped after the railway closed in September 1935.

http://762club.com/762home.php

The new loco will be modern in every sense of the meaning - welded boiler and (gasp!) roller bearings - but will look like the loco delivered from Philadelphia in 1898.

I always thought Oliver Bulleid’s Leader was an attempt to give steam its last chance before being eclipsed by diesel powered traction.

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/leader_01.html

#11

Earl Grey tea = YUK!!!

I simply cannot understand what it is in that particular type of tea that appeals to some.

Is that the type of levity TAC was looking for?

Give me our NERADA type any time.

#12

No doubt the idea of college students designing a new Steam locomotive was not to recreate the past but think to the future.

I feel the idea of a mainline locomotive would be beyond the training and resources of college students. It is more I suggest simply a design exercise.

Many countries have tried new designs to transition the development from steam to diesel hydraulic, diesel electric and electric traction. Some of the early electric traction locomotives looked like boilerless steam locomotives. Early automobile designs were in reality nothing more than horseless carriages.

An early British attempt saw steam locomotive chassis coupled to diesel drive in a bid to utilise the thousands of redundant steam locomotives available when the decision was made to phase out British steam. Like with most hybrids, the project was doomed from the start.

Several designs have been put forward utilising the latest technology in steam locomotive design, however, I feel that environmental concerns will kill off any real revolution in design.

Humour, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

#13

Tea? No, I prefer a good cup of coffee. I can never get the hang of sipping from those tiny cups with hardly a handle to hold all while pointing my pinky finger towards the sky. Tea belongs in a harbor off Massachusetts.

:wink:

#14

mrs tac and I drink a lot of tea. I have one of those spiffy half-litre Tim Horton heater mugs, and she has a smaller one with vultures on it.

What’s this about sipping tea with extended pinkies? I thought from your name that you were a guy?

BTW, we drink a LOT of coffee, too, but the water herabouts is not conducive to the use of a machine. Since we are both on a regulatory dieting régime, I can tell you that we drink about a litre of tea and two-point-six litres of coffee per average day.

tac, drinking second half litre of coffee this morning at 0645.

tac

#15

J.D. Gallaway said:

I think Father Fred has spent a few too many hours in the downstairs distillery sampling the many aged barrels of fine adult beverage.

T1 has too many difficulties for successful operation in today’s rail service. What about a NYC Niagara? With 80" boxpox drivers and 6000hp boilers they regularly ran in excess of 100mph in service between Harmon and Chicago. The added benefit would be that they SHOULD clear the British loading gauge, I think. They were smallest of the major 4-8-4’s built.

Not a chance. Too wide for the platforms in use here in UK, and too high by almost two feet inches. Did I mention too long? No turntable here in yUK still in existence could take it in one piece. Not that it could fit on the narrow turntables…

tac

#16

Well, Tac, razzberries just goes to show you why American steam was better than British steam!

Talk about opening a can of worms, huh?

You never did mention where this discussion was taking place, so I couldn’t join in. That being said, I wonder if maybe there isn’t some value in looking at the ACE-3000 direction again.

Being that the ACE’s design prospect was to bring steam into the late 20th century, I wonder if the physical design specs couldn’t be altered to fit the British loading gauge.

I’m just ruminating here, and it doesn’t make much economic sense, but another idea:

I’m envisioning an engine which uses the overhead wires for two purposes, one to crack and store some of the water in the twin tenders as hydrogen and oxygen. The H2 and O would be burned (not fuel cell) in a boiler to create the heat to boil the water for the main engine’s cylinders. The cracked water would be a battery of sorts, being used to provide power while the engine was out from under live wire. Since the boiler would also be heated via overheat electrons, the hydrogen fuel would also be used for peak demands on the boiler.

The addition of traction motors to the axles of the two tenders would add in the ability to operate with dynamic braking. Since injectors do not work with warm water, both the tender transfer and boiler feed pumps would need to be of the turbopump design, allowing for the dynamic brake resistor grid to be water-cooled. This would provide dual purposes, the watercooling of the resistors would be more efficient than the turbofans we use today, as well as provide feedwater preheating.

Finally, with the addition of traction motors to the consist, it would be possible and beneficial to use them as tractive power as well, allowing the steam and the electric to compliment eachother. Steam’s power was always best used on the higher end of the speed range, while the advantage of electric motors was their ability to provide exceptional power at low limits.

Of course, the reasoning here has to be the need to build a heritage engine, otherwise a straight electric make infinitely greater sense. The only major advantage would be the ability to operate on non-energized sections of track. And if a great amount of time is expected off energized tracks, then a trailing diesel b-unit with a diesel-alternator set which can provide more electricity than can be used by itself, with the extra being diverted to the traction motors on the tenders.

Idle thoughts from a steam nut at the throttle of a diesel… please SAVE ME!!!

#17

Fred Mills said:

Ahh, guys…let’s go for nuclear power. If they can do it on a submarine, why not on wheels. Add in the final electric drive, and you have what everyone loves. Add in a steam generator for that mist effect, and paint the whole thing black, with red window frames, and a few white stripes…

There should of course be an electric outlet for the tea kettle, and a good supply of Earl Grey…in the cab…oh, and don’t forget the potty for the crew…

This whole affair would be great. Only requiring refueling once in a generation…

Final touch: a name board, not just a number. Heck; name it after young Terry, or, maybe a dual name like “Terry-Ig” !

(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/vsmith/X-20%20atomic%20loco%20doc%20small.JPG)

I like Fred idea

#18

It would probably have the same problem that the Penssy steam turbine had, that of being shaken apart by traveling over the rails.

Still, that would look awesome, modeled in 1:29!

I wonder if it could be made to run on R-1 curves?

:slight_smile:

#19

Put each part on a 2-axle truck and articulate it, sure!

You know what LGB ought to do? Get an agreement with Walthers for the Oscar & Pike in #1 gauge.

#20

JD more likely it would be Aristo, as they already have the shorty cars in their RMT O gauge lineup

http://www.aristocraft.com/RMT-Peep-Passenger-Cars_c_130.html

But I’m not holding my breath for it any time soon.