Large Scale Central

Any advise for expansive clay soil?

Track and Trestles
#1

I’m about to order my first bacth of track (120 ft.) and am deciding how to do the roadbase, but am worried about our very expansive clay “soil” here, northwest of Denver.

I’m thinking of using a technique for at least the raised sections using a ladder profile roadbed made from plastic lumber. This method still has me installing posts to support the railbed, so is still akin to the traditional post & stretcher method. I expect to plant the posts ~2 feet deep to get below frost depth, but will certainly be in clay.

I thought of using the method of digging a trench and filling with crusher fines, but then realized it would almost certainly fill with water and swell the clay. I’m working around an existing landscape with no accessibility for any machinery, so can’t do anything radical.

Does anyone have experience with a layout installed any way on top of shifting soils?

thanks, Ken

#2

Ken ,
Is your layout to be an off-ground completely job ? Like a table all round the garden ?
Mike

#3

Hi Mike,
I’ve got a wide, but shallow, landscaped, back yard and young boys, so want to preserve grass for their play.

I’m planning the layout to run it against the back fence area where there’s 3-4 feet of rocked area with shrubs. There’s a tree bumped out into the yard at the right end, so that provides ~11 x 16 area for me to play with. I also plan to claim ground on the other end for an 8-10 foot loop. I’m expecting for the rail closest to the fence to be elevated (for visibility, behind shrubs) and the front track to be at near-ground level, but haven’t decided how high to raise the back rail.

To get the elevation, I’ve got ~10 foot loops planned at both ends, and the run in between is ~50 feet.

I ordered a box of AMS Flex Track today to see if its what I want to do the whole thing in. I’d like to build the switches myself, so will probably just install a simple loop to start, then build onto it as I learn in general, and esp. to make the switches.

As a note, I think I’m getting boxed into using Trex for the ladder railbed. I haven’t located any plastic lumber in my area so far.

thx,
Ken

#4

If you have access to the last several issues of Garden Railways Magazine, Kevin Strong has been writing an article on building a garden layout. He’s from the Denver area, and has brought in a few truckloads of topsoil to raise his layout above the surrounding surface. You may want to look at that option.

#5

Ken Albin ,
It sounds as thogh you are trying to be above ground all the way . Given your clay soil . it need not be a problem . My house is built on clay and has been here since 1922 ,the only foundation damage suffered was caused by an adjacent buzz bomb explosion .
The top of the clay here goes from surface to 2 feet down .My method of layout base , which worked for many years for O scale ,was to use the clay as a setting for house bricks on which to foot the uprights . So the bottom of the pretreated timber had a run-off under ground . Every so often I put an upright well down into the clay to stabilise the "table " That way you are not looking for the whole lot to rot . My new layout will be built on a large table around the garden , totally supported on house bricks to keep the uprights out of the wet . with stiffening provided to hard mounts screwed to fence posts ,which are concreted in . A small runoff at the bottom of each upright can be provided using a concrete roof around the base of the timber .
Mike

#6

Greetings from the other corner of the universe (translation: SE Denver) where we sit on top of the same soil. As Ken Brunt mentioned, I put my railroad in last summer under very similar circumstances. I’ve not had too much trouble with my railroad and these soils. I brought in 15 tons of new soil for the railroad proper, but all the roadbed is secured via 3/8" rebar driven into the clay. I didn’t want to build a “solid” roadbed, so mine is basically a “reinforced floating” roadbed. It’s laid on 1/2" PVC electrical conduit. It’s enough support to keep the track in place and to keep it from being knocked around by errant feet, but not so much to where the roadbed itself is the primary support for the track. I still rely on a firm bed of crusher fines for that. I’ve not had too much shifting over the winter–most I think just due to the roadbed settling in in the first place. There’s a guy up in Ft. Collins who’s used this method for 4 or 5 years without any major trouble.

If I wanted something that gave a more solid foundation to the track, I’d go with the “ladder” method, but I wouldn’t “firmly” attach it to the ground. I’d adapt it so it was more of a floating ladder, similar to how our interior basement walls here are constructed on our floating slab floors. I’d drive some rebar into the ground to keep the ladder in position, but I would not firmly attach the ladder to the rebar. Instead, I’d drill a 1/2" hole in the mounting block and simply slide it over the rebar, so it’s free to rise and fall around the post as the soils dictate. The ladder roadbed itself will have enough vertical strength to keep the track even. There’s bound to be some occasional “fixing,” but that’s going to be inherent on any system where the foundation is–shall we say–not stable.

If you get a chance to venture out this way, give me a jingle. I’m in the book.

Later,

K

#7

Thanks guys, these are good ideas to consider.

I especially like Kevin’s suggestion of using a rebar as essentially a guide to hold the ladder posts floating in place. I think I’m updating my thinking to use the ladder for things above ground, and the conduit for the ground-level track.

Since I’m now thinking of using the ladder only off the ground, I think I may “cheap out” and use the cement board siding at Lowes, made by James Hardie. I found it flexible enough for my planned >8 ft diameter curves and it won’t kill my budget as the unobtainable HDPE lumber (in my area, at least).

My first box (60 ft) of AMS Flex Rail is coming sometime next week, and I won’t be ready - YIKES! Now I’m panicked about all of the details that I haven’t considered. At least I’ll have the weekend to plan, get some materials and play at making some ladder.

I did decide to go Radio Control with track power - probably Crest Train Eng since my going forward plan is Aristo engines. I have 2 Bachmann’s that will probably continue to run off track power with no R/C. I think a reasonably pivotal decision. At least I’ve decided to not worry about power control of multiple zones, so the track wiring will be limited to simple power runs and turnout control. (In simply writing this, I realized I also need to consider landscape lighting, town lighting, etc.)

I’ll try to take some pix and post them to entice more suggestions.
:slight_smile:

Kevin - This weekend is my son’s 6th b’day, but I’d like to take you up on your offer in the near future, esp. if I can bring my two R/R crazy boys!

Thanks a lot!
Ken

#8

Okay Ken, BREATH. Its a hobby, you do this for fun. Just because the track comes this next week, you don’t have to use it all in 5 minutes. Enjoy the boys and enjoy the planning, scheming and dreaming. Its all part of the hobby.

#9

Ric ,
I think he needed reminding to take a breath . I can understand the excitement of getting the track , but the resulting mental images remind me of a very funny Tom and Jerry cartoon where Tom was laying track over the front of his engine as he drove it , tongue out , flat out and Jerry bombed a crater into it with a bowling ball released as he flew over . Tom and train disappeared down the hole which typically went through the carpet as well as the floor .
What a great bunch of 'toonists those guys were .
So , yes , slow down .
Teach the 6 year old about planning . And , above all , enjoy yourself .
Mike M

#10

My layout plan is far from set, but I want to start with a relatively clean slate. I decided to remove rock and bushes from the territory I have agreement to “settle” with our RR. As for all territorial expansions, I expect to negotiate for more later.

I moved many wheelbarrows of rock today, with some help from my 6 year old. My 5 year old has no concept of work to attain goals yet, so disappeared early. In reality, my 6 year old was playing more in the rain than helping, but of course, the company was the goal anyway. Today’s weather has been a mixed blessing - cool and drizzling all day. The temp makes it great to work outside, but the raincoats and soggy grass have chased away my wet & chilly helpers. Still, for me, better than 95 & sunny.

Even though I’ve intended to do this since January, I didn’t really consider how much work it would be removing the significant amount of rock before even starting. Until I decide how much of the rock I’ll reuse, I’m just moving it on-site.

Yesterday, I picked up a 100 gallon preformed pond to incorporate into the puzzle.

I’ll try to post a picture & drawing soon to solicit much needed advice & suggestions. Unfortunately, likely another learning curve to do that.

thx, Ken

Mike & Rick - True, its a hobby but the way I’m wired, I have to get a bit hyped to get it done. I’m actually very patient and engaging with the boys so they can also learn along the way. Still, just too many thing to do in life, and too many years to retirement!

#11

You said - “too many years to retirement!”

That is what is so cool about this hobby. It works for almost any age, any income, many limited forms of talent or health conditions and you can participate in many ways by owning a layout, a train, a single railroad car or an idea in your head, being part of a club, isolated to only a computer or just an armchair modeler with a used magazine. It’s all very, very enjoyable and this internet has just expanded it by joining people together all over this globe.

What a kick!!!

Your boys will remember this time all their life as I do with my Dad, who has now been gone 13 years and the layouts we built together was in the period around 1955 through 1960.

Make sure you let the boys in on the planning and what is going on in your head. It will teach them that they can do anything.