Large Scale Central

American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Stati

General Discussion
#1

As tragic as the loss of any member of the US Armed Forces is, consider the below statistics:

The annual fatalities, by any cause, of military members while actively serving in the armed forces from 1980 through 2006:

1980 2,392 (Carter)
1981 2,380 (Reagan)
1984 1,999 (Reagan)
1988 1,819 (Reagan)
1989 1,636 (George H W)
1990 1,508 (George H W)
1991 1,787 (George H W)
1992 1,293 (George H W)
1993 1,213 (Clinton)
1994 1,075 (Clinton)
1995 2,465 (Clinton)
1996 2,318 (Clinton)
1997 817 (Clinton)
1998 2,252 (Clinton)
1999 1,984 (Clinton)
2000 1,983 (Clinton)
2001 890 (George W)
2002 1,007 (George W)
2003 1,410 (George W)
2004 1,887 (George W)
2005 919 (George W)
2006 920 (George W)
2007 899 (George W)

Clinton years (1993-2000): 14,107 deaths
George W years (2001-2007): 7,932 deaths

Are you surprised when you look at these figures? They indicate the loss from the two latest Middle East conflicts are less than the loss of military personnel during Clinton 's presidency when America wasn’t even involved in a war–unless you include Bosnia and Mogadishu, Somalia. (Remember “Blackhawk Down“?) Even more surprising is that in 1980, during Carter presidency, there were 2,392 US military fatalities!

These figures appear to indicate many members of our media and politicians pick and choose the information on which they report–that they present only those “facts” that support their agenda.

Consider the latest census of Americans. It shows the following distribution of American citizens by race:

European descent     69.12 percent
Hispanic                   12.50 percent
Black                       12.30 percent
Asian                        3.70 percent
Native American        1.00 percent
Other                        2.60 percent

Many members of the media lead us to believe the military death ratio is off balanced compared to the distribution by race in America. Here are the fatalities by race over the past three years in Iraqi Freedom.

European descent    74.31 percent
Hispanic                  10.74 percent
Black                        9.67 percent
Asian                        1.81 percent
Native American        1.09 percent
Other                        0.33 percent

Surprised again?

Hopefully, during the time between now and November, intelligent Americans can decipher –

the facts from the spin.
the spinners from the leaders.
those who seek even more power from those that seek justice.
the dividers from the uniters.

These statistics are published by the Congressional Research Service.

“History does not entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid.” Dwight D. Eisenhower

#2

Steve,

Do you just like to get beat up? Here comes anther 20 pages of bashing each other.

#3

Why are so many of the Regan years missing from the figures?
You have three years out of 8 years.
I suppose the missing 5 years might alter your results substantially.
I think that might qualify as “spin”.
Ralph

#4

Ralph- go look and report back :wink:

#5
Tony Goatz said:
Steve,

Do you just like to get beat up? Here comes anther 20 pages of bashing each other.


I just like to stir up the usual suspects and watch them cycle on station. :lol: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley: SWMBO says it’s a personality disorder.

#6

Steve, you are a walking sponge for urban legends. Here is a site (about.com) claiming your facts are wrong: http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_military_deaths.htm Also snopes: http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/deaths.asp But I just looked at the link you provided–where did you see those figures? I could not find figures for 2007 and the figures I found are quite different. Page 10, “U.S. Active Duty Military Deaths, 1980 Through 2006, Part I, Total Military Personnel” gives this result: clinton 8035 Bush thru 2006 9747 That is, more people died in six years of W than in 8 years of Clinton, and that figure does not include 2007, which was I believe the worst year if the Iraq war. Where did you find those very low 2006 figures? here is a chart–or rather, there would be a chart here if “my Files” was working

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/lownote/_forumfiles/chart.jpg)

I looked at the Congressional Research Service breakdown and a very surprising number of those deaths in the 90s were either homicides or suicides–actual combat deaths are quite low

#7

Missing data -

1982 - 2,319
1983 - 2,465
1985 - 2,252
1986 - 1,984
1987 - 1,983

Total deaths during Reagan administration - 17,201

Now, I invite you (and everyone else interested in what the numbers really tell) to scroll down a few more pages where it breaks out the cause of death for each year. Interesting reading. Too much information to cut and paste here, and it’s best read in its original context.

It’s far easier to deceipher the facts from the spin when all the data is presented. Thanks for providing the link to all the data so we can do just that. :wink:

Later,

K

#8
Steve Featherkile said:
As tragic as the loss of any member of the US Armed Forces is, consider the below statistics:

The annual fatalities, by any cause, of military members while actively serving in the armed forces from 1980 through 2006:

1980 2,392 (Carter)
1981 2,380 (Reagan)
1984 1,999 (Reagan)
1988 1,819 (Reagan)
1989 1,636 (George H W)
1990 1,508 (George H W)
1991 1,787 (George H W)
1992 1,293 (George H W)
1993 1,213 (Clinton)
1994 1,075 (Clinton)
1995 2,465 (Clinton)
1996 2,318 (Clinton)
1997 817 (Clinton)
1998 2,252 (Clinton)
1999 1,984 (Clinton)
2000 1,983 (Clinton)
2001 890 (George W)
2002 1,007 (George W)
2003 1,410 (George W)
2004 1,887 (George W)
2005 919 (George W)
2006 920 (George W)
2007 899 (George W)

Clinton years (1993-2000): 14,107 deaths
George W years (2001-2007): 7,932 deaths</blockquote>

Hey Steve

I guess I read numbers differently to you. This is what I saw.

Table 4. U.S. Active Duty Military Deaths, 1980 Through 2006,
Part I, Total Military Personnel Calendar Year Active Dutya Full-Time (est.)
1980 2,392
1981 2,380
1982 2,319
1983 2,465
1984 1,999
1985 2,252
1986 1,984
1987 1,983
1988 1,819
1989 1,636
1990 1,507
1991 1,787
1992 1,293
1993 1,213
1994 1,075
1995 1,040
1996 974
1997 817
1998 827
1999 796
2000 758
2001 891
2002 999
2003 1,410
2004 1,873
2005 1,941
2006 1,875

Clinton is starting to look pretty good now.

#9

I used to consider myself a Republican, but with all the BS I see lately I have begun to regret that affiliation…

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_military_deaths.htm http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/deaths.asp

Draw what conclusions you want…

Qoute:

The claim that there were more U.S. military fatalities during the Bill Clinton administration than there have been to date under George W. Bush is false. Moreover, that erroneous conclusion was based on falsified statistics.

Using the actual figures from the Congressional Research Service report cited above, the total military deaths under each of the two administrations are as follows:

Bill Clinton (1993 - 2000) … 7,500 deaths

George W. Bush (2001 - 2006) … 8,792 deaths

Of the 7,500 fatalities that occurred on Clinton’s watch, only 76 were attributable to hostile action (as compared to 2,596 under Bush); the rest were the result of accidents, homicide, illness, self-inflicted injuries, or unknown causes.

#10

Clinton years (1993-2000): 14,107 deaths
George W years (2001-2007): 7,932 deaths

Steve,
When you cite sources you could at least try to do this correctly.

From the document: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf
table Table 4. U.S. Active Duty Military Deaths, the following numbers follow:

Clinton years(1993-2000): 7,500 deaths
George W years (2001-2006): 7,720 deaths

Clinton years(1993-2000): 938 deaths/year
George W years (2001-2006): 1287 deaths/year

the ratio is 1.37 indicating 37% increase per year.

And in addition to average (per year) values, the trend in the
data is often even more important:

1993: 1213
1994: 1075
1995: 1040
1996: 974
1997: 817
1998: 827
1999: 796
2000: 758

========

2001: 891
2002: 999
2003: 1410
2004: 1873
2005: 1941
2006: 1875

========

Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
PS and how about related, non-US civilian casualties?

#11
Zbigniew Struzik said:
...................

Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
PS and how about related, non-US civilian casualties?


Hey Zubi, :wink: :confused:

What do you mean? Since when do they count the collateral “damages”, if they get counted at all then they’re listed as suspected enemy combatants or some such.

#12

Sorry, I made a typing mistake in year 2003 (used 141 instead of 1410 in the summation)
The following should now be correct:

Steve Featherkile wrote:

Clinton years (1993-2000): 14,107 deaths
George W years (2001-2007): 7,932 deaths

Steve,
When you cite sources you could at least try to do this correctly.

From the document: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf
table Table 4. U.S. Active Duty Military Deaths, the following numbers follow:

Clinton years(1993-2000): 7,500 deaths
George W years (2001-2006): 8,989 deaths

Clinton years(1993-2000): 938 deaths/year
George W years (2001-2006): 1498 deaths/year

the ratio is 1.60 indicating 60% increase per year.

And in addition to average (per year) values, the trend in the
data is often even more important:

1993: 1213
1994: 1075
1995: 1040
1996: 974
1997: 817
1998: 827
1999: 796
2000: 758

========

2001: 891
2002: 999
2003: 1410
2004: 1873
2005: 1941
2006: 1875

========

Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
PS and how about related, non-US civilian casualties?

Zbigniew Struzik said:
>Clinton years (1993-2000): 14,107 deaths >George W years (2001-2007): 7,932 deaths

Steve,
When you cite sources you could at least try to do this correctly.

From the document: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf
table Table 4. U.S. Active Duty Military Deaths, the following numbers follow:

Clinton years(1993-2000): 7,500 deaths
George W years (2001-2006): 7,720 deaths

Clinton years(1993-2000): 938 deaths/year
George W years (2001-2006): 1287 deaths/year

the ratio is 1.37 indicating 37% increase per year.

And in addition to average (per year) values, the trend in the
data is often even more important:

1993: 1213
1994: 1075
1995: 1040
1996: 974
1997: 817
1998: 827
1999: 796
2000: 758

========

2001: 891
2002: 999
2003: 1410
2004: 1873
2005: 1941
2006: 1875

========

Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
PS and how about related, non-US civilian casualties?

#13
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Zbigniew Struzik said:
...................

Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
PS and how about related, non-US civilian casualties?


Hey Zubi, :wink: :confused:

What do you mean? Since when do they count the collateral “damages”, if they get counted at all then they’re listed as suspected enemy combatants or some such.


About as leading and unfair as the original post.

FYI, most sources say 80-90k. Of course if we want to look at trends Saddam was credited with 500k to over one million. Hard to say for certain as Saddam was a tad more secretive than the current administration. So you could say there is a positive trend in this direction.

#14

Steve, you are the political email hoaxer’s equivalent of a cheap date!

#15
mike omalley said:
Steve, you are the political email hoaxer's equivalent of a cheap date!
Now that's funny :D :D :D
#16
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Zbigniew Struzik said:
...................

Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
PS and how about related, non-US civilian casualties?


Hey Zubi, :wink: :confused:

What do you mean? Since when do they count the collateral “damages”, if they get counted at all then they’re listed as suspected enemy combatants or some such.


I think Zubi is refering to the other miliitary personel that got roped into this war of agression

one might also consider the number of deaths from the goons the vice president has working for him, but lets not open that can of worms

#17
Mark Verbrugge said:
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Zbigniew Struzik said:
...................

Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
PS and how about related, non-US civilian casualties?


Hey Zubi, :wink: :confused:

What do you mean? Since when do they count the collateral “damages”, if they get counted at all then they’re listed as suspected enemy combatants or some such.


About as leading and unfair as the original post.

FYI, most sources say 80-90k. Of course if we want to look at trends Saddam was credited with 500k to over one million. Hard to say for certain as Saddam was a tad more secretive than the current administration. So you could say there is a positive trend in this direction.


Mark, ‘positive’ trend it is no doubt… do not forget the Lancet study and related work e.g.
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/counterexplanation.html
that number is also well over one million. It took Saddam 24 years to ‘achieve’ that number (if we use the upper bound you provide), while it is only 5 years since 2003. That is roughly 500% increase in per year rate… Best, Zubi

#18
mike omalley said:
Steve, you are the political email hoaxer's equivalent of a cheap date!
Yes Mike, cheap, but nobody ever said that Steve is easy. :lol: :lol: ;)
#19
Steve Featherkile said:
Tony Goatz said:
Steve,

Do you just like to get beat up? Here comes anther 20 pages of bashing each other.


I just like to stir up the usual suspects and watch them cycle on station. :lol: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley: SWMBO says it’s a personality disorder.

You guys are so easy! And HJ is right! I’m not cheap! :smiley: :lol: :stuck_out_tongue: