Large Scale Central

Accucraft K1 Garratt....

Electronics Live Steam
#33

David - as you prolly noticed, Simon [the very large rectangular gentleman with the appalling taste in leisure pants] was driving it by paw, and there were a number of other trains on the same track, as too. And the next 16mm live-steamer from Accucraft you see that has lights will be the first they’ve ever made. The space is there for a nice neat little LED system, but not the works themselves.

BTW, I’ve noticed a lot of hate finicky little questions by people who really should already have a good idea of the likely answer, bearing in mind the general level of expertise and experience of the client audience

So, how is the manufacturer is supposed to know in advance -

a. the length of consists.

b. the weight of consists.

c. the local conditions - inside with no cooling wind across the boiler, or outside in hot sun or near-freezing ambient temperatures.

d. the number of curves on any given track and the radii at which they set - all VERY important parameters which would govern the available steam and its application to the wheels.

e. the relative skill of the engineer/operator and his/her use of the steam.

f. the type of gas used - brands DO matter.

is beyond me.

I’m guessing that with two sets of large cylinders and comparatively high rotational crank/stroke rates that fifteen minutes is going to be an average run - with top-ups via the Goodall valve during that time.

My 3C Shay, for example - needs thirty ‘squirts’ every two hundred feet when I’m hauling twelve comparatively light skeleton cars on level track with sweeping curves. Change that for a curvy track and it goes way down to about 120 feet or even less. and that’s in good weather around 65F. David Bailey installed a double-volume gas tank that gives me runs between twenty and thirty minutes on average, depending on ALL the above parameters, and that’s after boiling up, shutting down, re-gassing and starting up again.

I’m just very glad that this pioneer locomotive has now been modelled at a price that is not TOO OOTW, and I’m certain that they will fast attract buyers. Good job, Simon, Matthew and the Accucraft team.

And Mr Cheng as well, of course. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

tac

OVGRS

#34

I think “a lot of hate” is a little strong,

There is one question, one smart alec remark, one expression of displeasure at the lack of info while demanding a deposit and then the desired estimate is provided by Mr Accucraft UK along with a number of photos of the pilot model.

When I take my portable track to train shows one of the most frequent questions is how long will it run? I always give the same answer, it depends on many factors, which usually satisfies the questioner. My Catatonk Shay or Accucraft EBT will both run about an hour and I’m very pleased when my Cricket tops 15 minutes.

Have fun,

Tom

#35

Post amended in the interest of peace and quiet.

tac

OVGRS

#36

Hmmmm. I notice that the other forum has had a radical re-shuffle of the K1 thread to the point where only Graham’s image post, and Zubi’s reference to my pics remains.

Looks like lsc is the only place to hold a decent conversation these days, eh?

tac

OVGRS.org

#37

Dougie’s “Short Video of Accucraft K1” thread looks the same to me. I just watched the video again and looked at the pictures posted by Graham Langer. It’s a nice looking and running loco! Not sure I’m ready to change my hair color.

Anyone know the radius of the curves?

Tom

#38

If my memory serves me right, those curves are 4ft radius.

tac

ovgrs

#39

It looks pretty good, would be fabulous on my 10’ radius or even the 6’ of my portable.

Uh Oh, I was really wanting a Roundhouse Darj Garratt.

#40

Straight from the horse’s mouth -

'From runs undertaken so far I know the boiler is good for half an hour and with the use of a Goodall valve it should give plenty of running time.

Graham.’ - Graham Langer of Accucraft UK

tac

OVGRS

#41

tac Foley said:

Chris Scott said:

K1: Is the steering wheel for direction change fixed or removable?

Mr Scott - I am surmazed that you ask this question, as you already have the Accucraft Garratt which operates F/R by an identical system. There is room for most modern micro-r/c systems in the cab to operate the throttle, albeit a mite tight, but putting servos in the ‘tenders’ might be beyond present technology.

tac

Tac;

I don’t get over here much so apologizes for the delay replying. There’s more room in the NGG16 cab and the steering wheel is located aft of the throttle. Easy access while running. Early NGG16 the steering wheel is fixed, not removable. In later version it’s a removable hex key. Albeit in both, early and late versions, the steering wheel was crazily short; lengthening it was required for my hands.

With the K1 steering wheel located under the throttle changing direction when steaming it’s unavoidable there would be a lot of boiler appendage contact, burns. Using a glove too bulky to be practical. Where there’s a will there is a way, but it will be in a range of awkward to say the least.

If the K1 steering wheel is removable, a hex key, one could use a flexible shaft socket (screw driver type) to control direction and avoid burns. From photos it appears the steering wheel is fixed. That would seem to leave 3 alternatives; 1. Live with it. possibly only changing direction when the K1 is cold. 2. Modify the steering wheel so it is key (hex or another type), still only when cold. 3. (see first sentence this paragraph). 4. R/C. I suppose there is a 5th, modify the direction change shaft below the floor board accessible from the side using a key (similar to Allen’s custom AC-6 SP Cab Forward.) Thinking about it just now, maybe #5 a middle ground approach, n ot as difficult as RC and uses the existing hardware.

RC: You wrote (MLS thread 07-26-2008) Rod Blakeman converted your NGG16 to RC so you’re familiar with the difficulty. The method would be the same on the K1 involving quite considerable disassembly installation. Although K1 being much smaller the task could be much more difficult - not enough room under the bunkers for the servo and hardware. I’m not sure what you mean by "in the tenders & modern technology. If you remember, the 2 servos required, one for each engine, go under the bunkers on the base plate, not in them (assuming you mean bunker not tender.)

Tac, a suggestion for you and your dilemma of making many postings then feeling you have to delete them. Sleep on a post before you post it. Write it out, it sits overnight and you get to reflect on it the next day. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-smile.gif)

#42

I deleted my post because I got a very unpleasant email about my comments - was it you, perhaps, using another name?

Anyhow, next time I need your advice on how to write a post, I’ll be sure to ask for it.

tac

#43

tac Foley said:

It’s a model of the K1 Beyer-Garratt locomotive, two of which were built for Tasmania around 1903. The VERY first K1 is back in UK and running in steam on the Welsh highland Railway.

K1 is not currently running. “With the boiler certificate having expired towards the end of 2014 the loco is now being stripped ready for the boiler inspector, as well as attending to other mechanical aspect of the loco.” K1 Working Parties K1 The Original Garratt - Maintenance and Support No ETA found.

#44

tac Foley said:

It’s a model of the K1 Beyer-Garratt locomotive, two of which were built for Tasmania around 1903. The VERY first K1 is back in UK and running in steam on the Welsh highland Railway.

The WHR K1 is a mixed breed. The boiler from K2 and the engines from K1. "The North East Dundas Tramway …line closed in 1929, the boiler of K1 was sold to a sawmill, and in 1947 K1 was sold to its builder Beyer, Peacock & Co, with the boiler of K2 attached and repatriated back to England. Beyer, Peacock & Co closed in 1966, with K1 sold to the Ffestiniog Railway. However K1 was too tall and wide for use within the restricted loading gauge, and after ten years of storage at Porthmadog, it was lent to theNational Railway Museum (NRM), York where it was cosmetically restored.[2][6][7]

As the Welsh Highland Railway rebuilding project reached fruition, K1’s potential for the line was recognised and in 1995 it left the NRM. A new boiler was found to be required. Parts were restored at various locations, with K1 reassembled at Boston Lodge.[8] After conversion to oil-firing, it steamed again in 2004 and finally received HM Railway Inspectorate approval in September 2006 to haul trains.[9] It entered passenger service in October 2007.[2][6][10]

In 2014, K1’s boiler certificate expired and it was withdrawn for overhaul.[6][11]

Tasmanian Government Railways K class

#45

tac Foley said:

PETE - it is my opinion, based only on fact, that the RH Darjeeling loco uses a whole lot of components that are common to a lot of other RH products, and TBH, I see very little innovation in that model, even down to the slot-head screws used to hold the buffer beams on. The cylinders are common RH cylinders, the wheels and much of the valve gear are common parts and so on. The cab is a piece of bent metal on four rods and by contrast with the overwhelming level of detail present on most Accucraft models, to me it looks very simplistic. but then, I HAVE an Accucraft NGG16.

By contrast, almost everything you can name, component-wise, of the Accucraft loco is brand-new, and it shares nothing with any other loco I can think of, externally, that is.

All that innovation, and the relatively few numbers that they will sell, by contrast with the few hundred Darjeeling Ds, will bring the price up, no matter who makes it, and where. As an aside, it’s interesting to note that every single Accucraft NGG16 I’ve seen for sale second-hand has been priced the same as, or slightly more than it cost when new.

The reason the RH DHR D Garratt is very plain and little detail is because that’s how it was during its life on the DHR.

  1. DHR D Class Garratt: Beyer-Peacock works photo. As it emerged from the factory.

DHR D Class Garratt: Beyer-Peacock works photo

  1. Manchester Museum of Science & Technology / The Iron Sherpa Vol. 2. Rather rare are pictures of the D-class as first operated.

DHR D Garratt working

3. The conversion to 1917: This is the prototype for the RoundHouse DHR D Garratt.

Thee only two significant differences between the the 1:1 Garratt below and RH’s;

  1. The buffer details (rivets, chains, etc.) Due to the widening of the model to suit 32/44mm dual gauge.

  2. On the left side, the pipe from the Steam Dome to the foot plate is missing.

Note: The 2 blocks of text with each of the 2 following pictures are from Die Darjeeling Garratt von Locobox It’s a German website and some of the words stump the Google translator.

"It soon appeared in with much Vorschußlorberren put into operation the new series a number of teething problems. To meet the specified by the railway company requirements, the engineers of Beyer-Peacock had dug deep into his bag of tricks. So had to, for example, in the corners of the center beam with boiler and cab moving toward curve appearance umd the Lichraumprofil observed. This was achieved with a complicated mechanism on the journals of the engines. Leaking steam lines and difficulties in snchronen controlling the steam engines were still the lesser evil.

  1. DHR D Class Garratt Painting

Finally, This painting, as far as I know and I’ve confirmed with RH, is the only contemporary image that provides the D Garratt livery. If you know of another please let us know.

"After the completion of the reconstruction the locomotive was finally able to bring its enormous power force to the rail. Now it turned out that the tight radii of the mountain route, it does not allow to exploit the possible length of the train, without leading to derailments. Some of the loops were too narrow for large train lengths.

The use of the D-class named “Highland Chief” was confined mainly to the route between Tindharia and Darjeeling. Although the locomotive was constructed for the mountains, they could force their performance when towing trains deploy up to 180 tons only in the plane. Around 1940, the locomotive was dismantled in Tindharia."

I think RH did a great job on the DHR D Garratt. Keeping the simplicity of the prototype. And as you can see from the 1917 Conversion photo (above), the RH D Garratt cab posts and extended sheet metal roof match the prototype - the D Garratt as it served its life on the DHR. I’m having my RH Garratt lined (prototypically) and adding new buffer beams that have the rivet and chain details.

As far as sales of the Accucraft K1? Accucraft will sell quite a few. Not sure it it will meet or exceed the NGG16, but two things are in its favor;

  1. Garratt’s are very popular. 250+/- NGG16 sold, RH’s Garratt is doing quite well, now there’s a 3rd Garratt.

  2. The RH Garratt and the K1 have in common that they are relatively large locomotives that can run on small layouts so there is a built in very broad customer base in the UK. Small garden layouts with a lust for bigger things that until these two Garratts arrived were beyond their dreams.

#46

Thank you, Mr Scott, very useful information there.

For those confused by the non-translated German words, our friend, the author Michael, just like any of us, gets his spelling wrong from time to time.

‘Vorschlusslorberren’ is missing an ‘e’ and has an ‘r’ too many - the word means ‘premature praise’.

‘snchronen’, with a ‘y’ sounds like it sounds in English, more or less, and has the same meaning - ‘synchronisation’.

‘Lichtaumprofil’ is missing an ‘r’, and means ‘loading gauge’.

‘Verbeserungen’ is also missing an ‘r’ and means ‘improvements’.

‘plane’ in this sense means ‘plain’, as in flatland areas.

tac

OVGRS

#47

To get the thread back on track, here are some comparison images of the prototype K1 Garratt as built and the Accucraft K1 Garratt model in black as it ran in Tasmania

#48

I want one so bad…but I can’t justify buying a locomotive that costs more than my car.

#49

Who the heck is “Paradise” ? I thought the basic rule was that we should use real names…and is that “Victoria” on Vancouver Island, or somewhere farther South ?

Fred Mills

#50

Fred Mills. said:

Who the heck is “Paradise” ? I thought the basic rule was that we should use real names…and is that “Victoria” on Vancouver Island, or somewhere farther South ?

Fred Mills

Fred, isn’t there a more polite way to ask someone who they are?

I believe we are required to put our real names in our User Profile, but they are not necessarily displayed - we can use a pseudonym. Victoria is a state in Australia, (if that’s where he is,) which Paradise should add to his profile if he wants to keep our B.D. happy.

#51

Fr. Fred is our Canadian Andy Clarke.

#52

John Passaro said:

I want one so bad…but I can’t justify buying a locomotive that costs more than my car.

I concur, wholeheartedly.