Large Scale Central

About trains or not exactly. Do I post or not?

General Discussion
#21

Richard Smith said:

Steve Featherkile said:

I suspect that “On the beam” comes from the early days of aviation, when a pilot would literally fly a radio beacon or “beam” to his next check point. Being “On the beam” was when the signal was the strongest.

Actually “on the beam” was when you heard a solid sound. Drift to one side and you heard a dot dash. The other side gave you a dash dot. This told you which side of the beam you were on. As you turned into the beam the two sounds came together to form a solid humming.

If the sound became louder you were heading towards the source while a gradual lessening meant you were moving away. These were called “Radio Range Beacons” and were prominent on all aeronautical charts along with their frequencies and call signals.

You also could determine position with omnirange signals. The only problem with these is that you’d have to correct for wind drift to avoid a spiral route to the source which used more fuel than a direct route. You straightened your route by crabbing into the wind.

Of course if all else failed there was the highly technical Seat of Your Pants method. :wink:

That’s what I was trying to say. Even earlier than the dots and dashes was following the signal from a radio station at your destination. That’s what the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor. So did the B-17s that were flying in that morning, according to my father’s cousin, who was the radioman on the lead ship.

#22

The guy some of you mentioned–with the mailing tube train–is Elon Musk of SpaceX and Tesla Cars fame. Pretty ambitious guy and some of his ideas work out as planned. The train…we’ll see.

Meanwhile, here’s some backstory.

Elon Musk unveils ‘Hyperloop’ plans

SpaceX and Tesla chief executive Elon Musk on Monday released his concept for a transportation system that could deliver passengers from San Francisco to Los Angeles in 30 minutes — if it is ever built.

**View Photo Gallery —**The billionaire entrepreneur and SpaceX founder has unveiled a concept for a transportation system that he says could deliver passengers from San Francisco to Los Angeles in about 30 minutes — if it is ever built. Musk provided these illustrations.

The billionaire entrepreneur estimated that the “Hyperloop” — a solar-powered, earthquake-resistant, pod-based transportation system — would cost $6 billion and take 10 years to build, assuming it can be built at all. The train would run on a “round induction motor” similar to the one used in Tesla Motors’ Model S.

#23

Steve Featherkile said:

Richard Smith said:

Steve Featherkile said:

I suspect that “On the beam” comes from the early days of aviation, when a pilot would literally fly a radio beacon or “beam” to his next check point. Being “On the beam” was when the signal was the strongest.

Actually “on the beam” was when you heard a solid sound. Drift to one side and you heard a dot dash. The other side gave you a dash dot. This told you which side of the beam you were on. As you turned into the beam the two sounds came together to form a solid humming.

If the sound became louder you were heading towards the source while a gradual lessening meant you were moving away. These were called “Radio Range Beacons” and were prominent on all aeronautical charts along with their frequencies and call signals.

You also could determine position with omnirange signals. The only problem with these is that you’d have to correct for wind drift to avoid a spiral route to the source which used more fuel than a direct route. You straightened your route by crabbing into the wind.

Of course if all else failed there was the highly technical Seat of Your Pants method. :wink:

That’s what I was trying to say. Even earlier than the dots and dashes was following the signal from a radio station at your destination. That’s what the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor. So did the B-17s that were flying in that morning, according to my father’s cousin, who was the radioman on the lead ship.

That’s what an omnirange was. Just broadcast out in all directions. you could use radio signals to determine your position by plotting two different ones on a map and where the lines crossed was your position. The advantage of flying the beam was you could follow it in a straight line whereas with an omni signal you had to have an idea of wind speed and direction to correct your heading. Both were used when I was in the USAF.

#24

Oh, oh. I was afraid of this. Now we have friends arguing with friends.

Having spent four years in the USAF specifically in airborne nav systems (omni, TACAN, doppler, radar, etc), I’m on the verge of challenging some comments. Except for a couple of things: it’s been almost 50 years since I did that; I had to repeat one of the “sets” (courses), TACAN, which got me sent to Libya instead of Rome, N.Y. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express and have 60 hours of private pilot hours (but no license). Anyway, in private pilot school we were told to “fly into the needle,” as I recall, meaning to keep that little airplane icon pointed at whatever position the needle indicated–say 200 degrees, which would be your desired heading/direction. If the plane icon was headed to the left, ya steered right. Of course you could chase the needle, but…
As for correcting for wind drift, that’s kind of a no brainer, in the sense that once you’ve established say, a crab angle, the plane will fly that way and head in the corrected direction. I forget if you can trim the rudder like you can the elevators, but if you can, you could trim the plane to crab. I don’t know what can be done on other planes as I flew only Cessna 150s.
Of course with GPS and today’s mod-urn gear, ya prolly don’t hafta do much of anything.

#25

Joe Rusz said:

Oh, oh. I was afraid of this. Now we have friends arguing with friends.
(Snip)

Nah, Richard and I aren’t arguing. We are just two friends sitting around the pot bellied stove down at the station, waiting for the “Limited” to come through (she’s late again, ain’t she?), trying to remember stuff we used in our far too distant youth.

Pass the peanuts, Richard…

#26

Richard Smith

That’s what an omnirange was. Just broadcast out in all directions. you could use radio signals to determine your position by plotting two different ones on a map and where the lines crossed was your position. The advantage of flying the beam was you could follow it in a straight line whereas with an omni signal you had to have an idea of wind speed and direction to correct your heading. Both were used when I was in the USAF.

I, too, long for the days when all I had to worry about was getting my scarf caught in the rudder.

:slight_smile:

#27

In view of the thread subject, I thought this cartoon was quite appropo

(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/payn_c11226220130919120100.jpg)

#28

My flying was over 50 years ago but one thing I remember for sure; the skarf was always white!

:wink:

Oop! you’re a bad influence Steve. The word is scarf not skarf! heehee!

#29

As for navigation we all missed out on the good old days. A TV show just recently discovered the old cement arrows that were placed every ten miles across the country during the 20’s and 30’s as navigation aids for the mail plane pilots to point the way. You can only imagine the challenge in an open cockpit in a storm trying to see a cement arrow on the ground to avoid getting lost.

I’d heard of them but never saw one until the TV show. They’re still there after all these years. I imagine the Army Air Corps had an instruction book on how to use them. heehee!

#30

I remember barns roofs being painted with arrows and town names as Nav aids, too. Actually, I don’t remember them, I remember being told about them. There’s a difference, but not much.

#31

Joe Rusz said:

Oh, oh. I was afraid of this. Now we have friends arguing with friends.

Having spent four years in the USAF specifically in airborne nav systems (omni, TACAN, doppler, radar, etc), I’m on the verge of challenging some comments. Except for a couple of things: it’s been almost 50 years since I did that; I had to repeat one of the “sets” (courses), TACAN, which got me sent to Libya instead of Rome, N.Y. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express and have 60 hours of private pilot hours (but no license). Anyway, in private pilot school we were told to “fly into the needle,” as I recall, meaning to keep that little airplane icon pointed at whatever position the needle indicated–say 200 degrees, which would be your desired heading/direction. If the plane icon was headed to the left, ya steered right. Of course you could chase the needle, but…
As for correcting for wind drift, that’s kind of a no brainer, in the sense that once you’ve established say, a crab angle, the plane will fly that way and head in the corrected direction. I forget if you can trim the rudder like you can the elevators, but if you can, you could trim the plane to crab. I don’t know what can be done on other planes as I flew only Cessna 150s.
Of course with GPS and today’s mod-urn gear, ya prolly don’t hafta do much of anything.

Joe, No need to challenge, you’re right. Your Holiday Inn stay served you well, In my zeal to explain why the radio range was preferred over the omni although both could be used and not having stayed at Holiday Inn the night before, I left a lot out. Of course we didn’t have an airplane icon but we did have a magnetic heading indicator as well as a compass. Too I date almost back to the weight on the end of a string attitude indicator. :wink:

The beam was most useful at night on IFR when you couldn’t identify landmarks on the ground.

#32

Richard, you are a brave man, indeed, to attempt to fly at night. Think of the peril!

Doen’t IFR stand for In Flight Refreshment?

#33

IFR=I Follow Roads

#34

IFR = I Fly Reckless

#35

I Farted Right?

#36

MOPP Level 4!

#37

And we are not even on the third page!

#38

All the nav aids, painted barn roofs, etc didn’t help me much, which is among the many reasons I didn’t pursue getting my ticket–after flunking the written exam. One time on a mandatory, solo cross-country, I got pretty lost over western Pennsylvania (all them forests pretty much look alike from a coupla thousand feet) and panicked until I remembered that in such cases, my instructor told me to fly west until ya hit the shores of Lake Erie, then turn north and head back to Buffalo. That, plus other incidents were God’s way of telling me to quit while I was ahead. And alive.

#39

See, all ya gotta do is tune in WKRP in Cincinnati and fly the beam until you find the city, then you are not lost any more.

:slight_smile:

#40

Actually, Steve, back when I was living in that part of the world, one of the most powerful radio stations in Buffalo was WKBW (home of The Hound), a 50,000 watt, clear channel baby that beamed it’s signal southeast, so you could pick it up practically in Florida. Ask me how I know this? :slight_smile: