Large Scale Central

A Stable for the Iron Horse

Modeling
#1

So, I’m going to build an enginehouse. I’m going to try to take a lot of what I’ve gleaned from the excellent structures on the P&OC and make them with solid walls covered in more accurate looking siding and other coverings. The design will be largely freelance, but along the lines of what you see for the WP&Y at Whitehorse, or the EBT at Mt. Union (though larger than the Mt Union one, and more complex than the Whitehorse one… but I’m getting ahead of myself.)

In the interest of a building that’s been around for awhile, I’m considering going for the wood look, probably with vertical siding on the outside, and a metal roof of some kind. Unless I can’t figure out the roof, and end up covering it with something that looks like more traditional roofing … windows and doors will be as I can find them … but it will have both … and the building will be LARGE … in that it will have three bays, and be somewhere around five feet long, with a small shop area at the extreme end (ie past where the rails stop.)

So as I get started laying out my drawings, I have some questions:

1.) Because of the orientation of locomotives on the railroad (thus far, I haven’t managed to find space for a big enough turntable…) the locomotives will be backed into the engine house. This means that any smokestack vents will be located on the end with the doors … which means all my elaborate plans for a functional roll up door are out the window, as it would either have to magically pass through, or would block entirely, the smokestack vent when up. So we do swinging double doors on each bay. Traditionally, did such doors swing IN or OUT, and why? I’ve seen museum examples of both, and both had problems created by where the swing was. Other than clearing the tallest locomotive, was there a rule for the height of such doors? And, while we’re on the subject of smokestack vents, was this simply a chimney with a cover to prevent weather coming down, or was there some kind of powered blower usually attached to these devices? Did they simply sit above the stack, or was there a mechanism to lower them over the stack?

I’ve had hands-on with two different sets of steam locomotives, and neither had an enginehouse so equipped… one didn’t use the shop for “hot” locomotives, and the other, well, just dealt with a lot of smoke when you first opened the doors in the morning!

2.) While I can find plenty of examples of the wooden siding on the outside of this kind of building, all the ones I’ve had direct experience with had insulation on the inside (metal building) or were covered with modern plywood … for an enginehouse built in the 30’s or 40’s, what would have been found on the inside of the walls, and the underside of the roof? I don’t need to go bananas with this… paint will suffice if that kind of surface was present… but while I’m not going for the superdetailed interior, enough to make it look “right” for pictures with the doors open and not all of the bays full would be nice.

3.) Is there a rule about the angle of the peak of the roof on this type of building? I can guess as to what “looks right” … but if there’s a rule for how big a roof truss you need to span what’s rapidly becoming a building that’s basically 50 feet wide, this would be the time to make those kinds of plans! (The building will likely have doors approx. 15 feet tall with enough space above them and below the roof truss to make sense… likely 10 real inches from foot to where the peaked truss part starts.

I guess this isn’t really that huge a building by “real” standards … about 100’ long by 50’ wide by probably some 25’ high, but the footprint on the indoor layout is just LARGE. Will be interesting to see how the power plant and crusher/concentrator come out …

Anyway, any input would be appreciated. I picked this one for the first time 'round because it’s a very basic shape, and while large, relatively simple to lay out (with the exception of the aforementioned doors…) Hopefully by the time I get to Depots, I’ll be a master at this.

Matthew (OV)

#2

Matthew ,
I have no wish to be seen as "picky " , but an engine house is normally a thing for housing beam engines , mill engines and so forth . Stationary engines .
Even the WP&YR refer to their facility as "the shops " , in the fortnight I spent there , I never heard it referred to as the engine house .
The only reason I mention this is your research may be limiting itself to the wrong thing–try keying in "engine house " or "railway engine house " and you will see what I mean ,you get estate agents pouring out of he woodwork .
You mention a 50’ span . Does the 50’ have to be unsupported ? A "stall width " would be far less than 50’ , and verticals to support the roof trusses would have been used to give storage facilities alongside each stall .
You are obviously going the right way in designing your shop , you have already promoted questions . I hope your post promotes more , and that you enjoy your project .
Mike M

#3

Mike… My, that was fast … of course, it’s already lunchtime over there, I suppose … I call it the “engine house” simply because that’s what we called it in Essex … being the domicile of the locomotive, but not nearly round having but one track, and two sections … it was also the shop, and the sometime theatre, assembly hall, refectory, and display area depending on the day… but generically the “engine house.” The other place had an engine house, simply for storing the beasts between uses, and a seperate building entirely for shop work… Anyway, beyond the nomenclature, yes, while there won’t be a whole lot of room between stalls, there would certainly be enough for posts if they were needed, on either side of the centre track. Would probably be a good place to put fire extinguishers, air connections and the like … and with the addition of a couple inches space, would probably allow lots more working room with all spaces full. My intention was to have a separate facility for the “machine shop” wherein one would find the lathes, milling machines, saws, and so forth, possibly even “off stage” while the enginehouse would lend itself to engine storage, routine maintenance and service, and, in the event of a major project, a place to work out of the weather, though this would probably require one or both adjacent tracks to be left empty to accomodate such major work. In short, the design of the building is entirely open to change, speculation, and improvement at this point… but starting from something along the lines of this:

Only with a few windows in the sides, and three bays across instead of two. Over to you … Matthew (OV)

#4

Oh, also, see: http://www.spikesys.com/EBT/Tour/muehouse.html

MRB

#5

Matthew ,
Interesting link to an engine shed (as we call them ) .That is an ideal sort of building , as you say . three stalls and you have what you want .
The term "engine shed " is by no means derogatory , the term is used by officialdom --and WAS used by them when I was a young trainspotter --we not only collected train numbers , but also on the front of the smokebox
door ,there used to be a "shed plate " ,an oval casting with something like

                                                              21
                                                               F

cast in . It was interesting to look for distant shed numbers , and our "refs " or reference books gave the location of each shed , as well as the engine numbers ,classes , descriptions , etc. .
So we could "cop " a good shed as well as a good engine number .This was because engines tended to stay in their own territory .
A big shed , like Crewe for example , could have a few hundred engines ,and there were also some like in your link wherein resided one engine–but it still had a shed number allocation .
Mike M

#6

another interesting structure is the one in Rockhill…

#7

Now , that is a nice one , I like the timber pattern on that .
Mike M

#8

That’s the entrance to the boiler shop–where the crews did major repairs on the locomotives. The building to the right is the car shop, and may provide to be more along the lines of what you’re after. It has three tracks, two of which (center and east) go all the way through. I’ll dig through my files to see if I can find a photo of the south side of the building, so you can see how the doors are arranged.

Windows are a must. Old shops were typically very dimly lit, so a heavy reliance on natural light was a necessity. The EBT had its own power generator, but even that was limited in what it could produce for the entire shop complex, station, and the railroad president’s house. (Rank has its privileges.) Note - the machines in the shops were driven by steam power via overhead belts.

So far as nomenclature goes, on this side of the pond the term “engine house” is applied to both kinds of structures–ones that house locomotives and ones that house stationary steam engines. Often, if the stationary steam engine itself was adjacent to the boilers, it may have been called the “boiler house” instead. In the Rockhill Furnace shop complex, this is the case. However, in the Robertsdale mine complex, the “enginehouse” is right next to the “boiler house,” but is a separate structure. There’s also an “engine house” to store locomotives in Robertsdale.

Later,

K

#9

Matthew, Another idea you can borrow from Rockhill Furnace are the roll-up doors on the EBT roundhouse. These utilize corrugated metal and roil up into a round area at the top, outside of the stall. I’m not certain what year they were installed and what they replaced, but they are from the common carrier era (1956 and prior). Not a great photo of them. I have better at home.

Also, the smoke jacks just sit above the engine. They have a hood like apparatus at the bottom to collect the smoke, and a vent cover outside to keep the rain out. Jon

#10

I keep looking at those doors in Ken’s photo .
It looks for all the world as if at some time , both the right hand doors have been rebuilt . Or the left, whichever was the original pattern . Now , there’s a thing to put in a model , a bit of history . We all like to think of
weathering , but should really be talking of "ageing " .Things get dirty through the weather ,dust , rain ,but we must not forget the dings , dents , little fires where someone saved the day but the scars remain , splintered timber where a shed door got blown into an engine as it entered the shed --your modelling limit is governed by your imagination .
So , who smashed the windows on the doors in Ken’s photo , and isn’t that a super thing to put in a model ?
That is what gives a model character .
And don’t forget wear and tear , the unavoidable sort . Have a quick peek at my tank in the figure thread , to see an example . If you stick a bulldozer on your layout and don’t weather/age/wear it ,it will never blend in . Unless you stick it in a showroom .
So don’t forget your crud round the shed , Matthew .
Mike M

#11

See, I knew this would be a good thread.

I really was intrigued by the concept of making a working rollup door … though my capacity for scratchbuilding the mechanism made it work more like a home garage door where the door ends up flat above the entrance (using a screw drive), instead of rolled up into a mechanism … not sure how I’d work the true roll up kind and make it operational. Obviously with the rollup type, it wouldn’t block the smoke jack …

Anyone ever done a working one?

Also …

Has anyone got any kind of data, pictures, annecdotes on what’s found between stalls? I have heard of tool racks, support columns, etc … and a 50 foot truss would be a bit extreme unsupported, I think, at least for the time period we’re talking about. So far, all the inside shots I’ve seen are of the two bay version, which often do not have anything between rows.

As to outside facilities … I have a 6x6 or so beam I need to hide in a water tower, and plan on coal pockets of one kind or another, as well as a diesel tank and some grease cabinets etc… there will be a service pit, and probably an overhead beam hoist of some kind.

Also, from an operational standpoint, I plan to make the whole building attached to the base plate, which will drop into the benchwork like a puzzle piece … meaning the whole thing can be lifted out as a kind of large access hatch. I also plan to make the parts of the floor between tracks removable from underneath removeable so that engines can be got to from underneath in the event of an in-house derailment or need to switch on/off a sound system, RCS system, etc. That probably means I’m going to need a few more inches clearance between tracks to comfortably get a hand up there… and the building continues to grow!

Matthew (OV)

#12

Matthew, Sounds like you’ve got a plan…! First off as to available space…you don’t have to have the turntable directly adjacent to the engine house. Many small lines had a turntable off of a single track or a wye some distance from the engine house itself. Most engine houses I’ve seen have just bare studs and rafters showing from inside. In 1940 it’s unlikely there’d be any insulation unless the location was in very cold climes. A two stall engine house with machine shop attached would most likely be laid out in one of two ways. The machine shop would be an open bay off to one side opening directly to one of the stall tracks. Another arrangement would be at the rear and one stall track would extend into the machine shop for ease in rolling wheels and trucks into the engine house. A pit between the rails of one or both stalls would allow for working beneath the locomotives and allow for jacking up a locomotive or tender when installing new trucks or wheels. The pit would not extend into the machine shop. The area between stalls might have low heavy duty work benches and /or bare floor for handling side rods or valve gear parts, etc. Shelving would most likely be along a wall although there could be some between the stalls. Depends on how heavy of repairs are handled. Most work would be in the engine house proper with machine work and parts making or repair done in the machine shop and moved via wheeled carts into the repair area. A crane could also be used if available although for a short line such work might be performed by a railroad crane brought in for a specific job. There was usually a flue rack containg flue pipes. This might be inside but also was often just outside the building. I have a number of shots of various engine houses but they’re not on my computer. I did find two examples though that might be of interest.

I don’t know the particulars on this one but I’m sure it’s standard gauge. It’s a long one. Notice it has smoke jacks at both ends.

This one’s a bit more rustic but with wood siding as you wanted. It belonged to English Lumber Co. about 1920.

#13

Matthew -

Yogi (Lawrence Wallace if I remember correctly) has done close to a Roll-Up using corrugated PVC from signs. I don’t think it would be two difficult to adapt his idea to a full roll-up. That is it wouldn’t be difficult for you. I wouldn’t have clue :o

JR

#14

Here’s one I did in HO back in the previous century:

The original plan was to have opening doors - on hinges. Never got around to it… Not sure how “correct” it is, but I still think it looks acceptable.

#15

I don’t know if you have seen the hanging bamboo calendars in Chinese restaurants . I have several and turned one into a very respectable roller door . It has to be a particular type ,flat bamboo , not square or "split " .
You would instantly recognise its worth if you saw one . My local Chinese thought I was barmy when I asked him to keep his ones for me --they also make good treadways for the roller tracks used on across beach invasion
equipment .
If your local chinee fails you , the trick is to tack down some string in parallel lines and carefully glue flat pieces of wood ( or whatever ) across them for slats . The pieces must abut very closely . and must be parallel .The slightest taper on the wood gives a roller blind that wants to drive round the bend . It is also better to cut a groove in the battens , slats , or whatever you call them to take the string so that it is just recessed . This allows the slats to roll flat when the roller is being opened . Yes I have , yes it worked , and no I haven’t got it , I did it for someone else . But it is not difficult ,the main thing is to buy accurate slats .
The "customer " said it was ok , but he didn’t use it , but it was nice to know he could . I didn’t need to know that .
Mike M

#16
Mike Morgan said:
The slightest taper on the wood gives a roller blind that wants to drive round the bend .
A situation not wholly unfamiliar to me ..... there are those like SWMBO who contend this has already happened to me.

Seriously … if I undertsand you correctly, you mean that if the battens are not square there is difficulty with the mechanism extending the rollup door from the rolled part, and down the “track” to the floor?

Had thought about doing something like this by gluing on a tank/bulldozer track or something … the rollup shade is a good, and much lighter idea.

Matthew (OV)

Oh, and knowing your love (or not) of acronyms … SWMBO is “She Who Must Be Obeyed” …

#17

Matthew ,
You would have difficulty rolling it up to start with .By square , I mean parallel . Parallel sided and parallel mounted .If you imagine each piece to be tapered , then in the extreme,put side by side ,they would form a fan when laid flat , even if you cheated and turned each alternate one over , it makes the rolled up itemmore
bulky .
You do realise , I hope , that even if the slats were made of steel , they would need help getting "down " . In wood or plastic there is insufficient weight for gravity to do the job . So right from "go " you need to include a method of pulling down , which is easy if you can reach the thing . A long string over pulleys is needed if you want to remote it ,in both directions . This manual drive is very common on these type of doors/shutters .My last workshop had a chain drive like on a hoist . This stopped the thing descending the last few feet with a sudden rush and a bang .
It’s the acronyms I don’t understand that irritate .
TTFN
Mike M
Ta Ta For Now .

#18

Well, assuming I can get the thing to both slide (where it’s going straight on the tracks) and roll (on the roller above the door) I figured I’d drive the roller with some kind of gear motor… possibly an HO drive of some kind… if I go for swinging doors, probably a bell crank mechanism with an EZ Air cylinder for each door.

The manual system has merit, but it’d be interesting to get something you could reach from the control panel.

Now to actually BUILD this thing … at its current dimensions, I’m going to have to take some track out of service and build on the benchwork, because it’s almost as large as my whole workbench will be!

Matthew (OV)

Incidentally, I know Richard Smith uses 1:22.5 doors and windows with some adjustment like steps to make them look taller … is there a source of 1:20.3 stuff out there? A building this big is gonna need some bigger windows or it’s gonna look like the Taj Mahal.

#19

Well Matt, did you EVER get around to building this? :slight_smile: