Large Scale Central

A Cautious Post

Electronics Power and Sound
#41

The brake and throttle are on the same screen on my apps. No swipe. To me, that is really the charm of the phone. You can write anything and invent your own interface. I have the horn, bell, brake, direction, crossing horn sequence and throttle on the main screen. These are really the main ones I use.

As I write these I’m finding I use the same screen layout more or less and just change the underlying function code it sends. So the next step is a user configurable app- you assign a button or icon to a function code and save that on the phone as a ‘configuration’ or something like that. There is also the possibility of ‘scripting’ a set of DCC commands and have them execute in sequence with one button touch. Stuff like that is pretty neat to consider.

I do see your point on the tactile factor, there is something to be said for it. I do miss a knob sometimes. But I can hold the phone in one hand and use my thumb on the slider for the most part. It’s not perfect but the sheer flexibility of what you can do with these little guys wins me. And sooner or later there will be a knob interface for phones :slight_smile:

This is my base first screen on my Economi and TCS apps. Mostly I don’t even go to the other screens.

#42

Now there is a rational and helpful response.

And yes, the big thing the interface has going for it, is it’s easy to change.

Have you thought of a configuration option that lets you arrange the “buttons” and map them to different functions, or macros?

That would move the “advantage” needle up for sure.

Greg

#43

I like tactile; it’s the reason I stayed with the older 2-stick radio when Del moved Railboss to a small key-fob with buttons. But there is a lot to be said for ease of use; especially when handing a throttle to a guest. When I hand off my 2-stick I need to explain all the functions and there are no visual cues as to what is what, so most guest users don’t use functions other than throttle and direction. With the phone, or newer devices with screens, there is a lot of visual cues.

So how about this - if you are going to dedicate a phone or tablet to throttle service, you could apply something like doming liquid (look that up under crafts) around the button borders so they could be felt. There would still be no tactile feedback that you did push the button or slide the slider, but you could find it without looking.

#44

We expect to be snowed in tomorrow. My goal for the day, assuming the power stays with us, is to get a JMRI to AirWire transmitter working. Aside from making CV programming much easier, this would also allow for smartphone throttle integration.

#45

Greg, yes, I was thinking perhaps a PC app- arrange the icons, import your own thumbnails maybe, set up any macros or sequences, save that config to the phone and the android app uses that for it’s screen layout and functions. That would be a fun project.

Jon, I have to agree on the tactile. It is a trade off I guess. That ‘doming’ stuff, I had not heard of that before, interesting. Perhaps something like that with a thin clear backing that sort of ‘static stuck’ to your phone? I wonder if that would work. Hmm. Easy to change so it doesn’t have to be permanent? Just some small ridges would probably do wonders for ‘feeling’ where you are. I’ll have to look into that. Great idea.

Eric, I see you are going to get dumped on up there. It’s going to miss me, I’m just far enough inland. Snow days are good programming days tho! I played briefly with JMRI a few years ago but I have such a bad opinion of Java that I think it colored my outlook. (I should probably get over that, haha) So JMRI is wifi based for phones and tablets? You connect to an access point your JMRI computer is connected to?

#46

Martin: I haven’t used JMRI much myself, never having had a DCC layout. But you can set up your roster in the software on the host, and it provides an API for WiFi throttles on the local network (or beyond, I suppose, if mapped to the outside). There are several turnkey apps available that will work. Here’s a quick overview: http://jmri.sourceforge.net/help/en/package/jmri/jmrit/withrottle/UserInterface.shtml

I’m not into Java, either. I prefer Python, and of course all the microcontroller stuff is C++ish. JMRI supports as one of its hardware interface options an Arduino-based DCC controller called DCC++. I plan to modify this to talk to a radio module instead of track. We’ll see how it goes.

#47

Greg Elmassian said:

Kevin, you state the phone interface is perfectly adequate, then you state: " For instance, I use F7 as a brake on my throttles, which I have to apply in order to stop the train. On my phone-based throttle (WiThrottle), I have to swipe from one screen to the next to get to the page that has my F7 brake function, swipe back to blow the horn, then back and forth, etc. "

Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough in my specific post. When I called the phone “perfectly adequate,” it was in the context of being comparable the tactile throttles which were being discussed in the posts previous to mine. In other words, I run trains with my phone some days, a tactile throttle on others. My choice of throttle has zero impact on my enjoyment of operating whichever railroad I happen to be operating. I didn’t specify that in my post, rather I figured it would be clear based on the context of the overall thread. Apparently not.

That being said, just because I find the phone a suitable control interface, it doesn’t mean it can’t be improved upon. I have yet to use a controller that wouldn’t benefit from some level of improvement. I like the display of the Revolution controller, but I don’t like that it doesn’t have a knob. I like the overall size and control knob on my new Airwire T-1300, but wish it had a display for loco# and frequency. I like the convenience of using my phone, but I wish the specific app I use was laid out differently. Of those three, the phone interface can be fixed very easily with new software. Ain’t nothin’ you can do about the drawbacks of the other two except wait for a third option to come out and buy it instead. If I’m basing my choice of control system upon a user interface that has the greatest potential to be customized for user interaction, guess which two aren’t in the running?

Later,

K

#48

My hat is off to you Kevin: “My choice of throttle has zero impact on my enjoyment of operating whichever railroad I happen to be operating.”

That statement is and never will be true for me. My throttle is a tool that is there to make the operation as easy and convenient and powerful as I wish. Luckily if a better one comes out, I can buy it.

I completely agree that the “display” is very customizable on the phone, but not the buttons and knobs, which are things that help me operate the train without looking. There’s other cool stuff a physical, tactile interface gives me, which I am willing to pay for and increase my enjoyment.

I know you made the “zero impact” statement above, but surely you don’t WANT to have to switch screens to go between braking and whistle control. So, you must be the most patient and forgiving person on the planet, I must admit personally I will never achieve your level there! Honestly, thank you for explaining your frame of reference, I would never have guessed your patience and ability not to be affected by such things. I’ll remember it in the future.

In any case back to trains, we’re learning some good stuff here, and Eric, I might want to talk to you about interfacing to JMRI, the Zimo people are dragging their feet, and I got little support from the JMRI people. I’ve got a super DCC controller but want JMRI interfaced.

Greg

#49

Greg Elmassian said:

My hat is off to you Kevin: “My choice of throttle has zero impact on my enjoyment of operating whichever railroad I happen to be operating.”

That statement is and never will be true for me. My throttle is a tool that is there to make the operation as easy and convenient and powerful as I wish. Luckily if a better one comes out, I can buy it.

I completely agree that the “display” is very customizable on the phone, but not the buttons and knobs, which are things that help me operate the train without looking. There’s other cool stuff a physical, tactile interface gives me, which I am willing to pay for and increase my enjoyment.

I know you made the “zero impact” statement above, but surely you don’t WANT to have to switch screens to go between braking and whistle control. So, you must be the most patient and forgiving person on the planet, I must admit personally I will never achieve your level there! Honestly, thank you for explaining your frame of reference, I would never have guessed your patience and ability not to be affected by such things. I’ll remember it in the future.

In any case back to trains, we’re learning some good stuff here, and Eric, I might want to talk to you about interfacing to JMRI, the Zimo people are dragging their feet, and I got little support from the JMRI people. I’ve got a super DCC controller but want JMRI interfaced.

Greg

Greg said : Tool

#50

Bob McCown said:

Craig Townsend said:

This is the throttle I was introducing.

https://www.iascaled.com/store/ModelRailroad/ProtoThrottle/MRBW-CST

Now that’s nifty. How about one that’s a beltpack?

You have expensive tastes Mister Moderator.

p.s.: Hope you’re not freezing your ----- off up there in the Commonwealth.

#51

Greg Elmassian said:

I know you made the “zero impact” statement above, but surely you don’t WANT to have to switch screens to go between braking and whistle control.

No, but if it were really that objectionable, I could always re-map the brake to the F5 key, which is on the front screen of the WiThrottle app. The trouble with re-mapping to F5 for me (beyond having to do each of my decoders individually) is that I’d still be up the creek when operating on my friend’s HO line, where F7 is his standard for braking. The lesser of the two evils is to wait for the software to allow me to customize the user interface so I can select which function keys are on which screen.

Truthfully, I use my phone in primarily two environments. I use it in my workshop in conjunction with JMRI when I’m programming and tuning my decoders. When I’m doing that, I’m usually focusing on one feature at a time, so the need to swap from one function screen to the next is minimized. I’ll also use it on my friend’s HO line, as my phone is smaller and more convenient to juggle with the switch lists and car cards we use. There, I’ll have to swap between screens, but the world doesn’t end if I forget to blow the horn when changing directions once or twice. I use my Airwire throttles outside and on my On30, as I’d otherwise have to spin up my PC and launch JMRI to use my phone.

I hope to get Martin’s receiver installed in one of my locos in the next week or so, then I can start playing around with that interface. (It will require me to find my son’s Android tablet, which may take a while…)

It’s not a matter of being “patient,” just adaptable, I guess. In 30+ years of running battery power, I’ve used 2-stick R/C controllers, pushbutton boxes, key fobs, phones, and a wide variety of DCC and DCC-esque controllers. You write frequently of not needing to look at your throttle when operating. I do–not out of “need,” but just because it’s part of operating the train for me. I’m watching the train, looking at switches to make sure they’re thrown properly, looking at car tabs to figure out where I need to go next with my switching moves, checking my switch list to make sure I’ve got all the cars I should have, looking at my throttle to make sure my fingers are on the right keys or to see what my throttle is set to (especially with my Revolution pushbutton-only controller). My eyes are always looking at the whole operating environment, and the throttle is one part of that environment. I think that’s probably why I’m so adaptable to a visual phone interface. Different strokes, exactly.

Later,

K