Large Scale Central

A Cautious Post

Easy to operate is the key. That’s what attracted me to the old RCS stuff. 4 buttons, plus a shift key. And it was the size of a pack of cards. Was it perfect? Certainly not, but 17 years ago when I did my first install it was what I felt was the best around.

Simplicity is why I like the Proto Throttle. It functions just like the prototype. Now, getting it to work in a truly wireless setting will be something to find out. I’m looking forward to this new product coming out. Plus, the design is all open source. So, if someone wants to build and adapter to make it work for them they can.

Maybe a givens and duthers list of wireless control needs to be started?

Vincent, I would say that one reason for your “success” with DCS is really the handheld throttle, where there are buttons and screen information telling you what you are doing.

You are working with a system where there is one manufacturer, so everything works the same, push the dedicated whistle button and the horn/whistle sounds.

All the more advanced systems have the capability, but the user interface is the key to making it fun.

In DCC sound for example, lights, horn/whistle, bell, sound mute, brakes are pretty standard. So is momentum, but few people change it during a session.

You can further “define” your own standard, and you can do it with different manufacturer’s decoders, which is nice, so if you are a coupler clank person, or a cab chatter person, you can customize it to your liking.

So, for simple speed control and direction and horn/whistle and bell, dedicated buttons make sense, and if you are using a smart phone, you can make the “buttons” big enough to hit easily (although you still have no tactile feedback and have to look at the phone).

But as the requirements to do things like smoke on/off, cab chatter, coal shovelling, coupler crash, adding “load” to increase the “working sound” of the loco, as the need/desire for all these things increase, then throttles with dedicated buttons become simpler than digging through menus or remembering weird, non-intuitive keystrokes.

Look at the evolution of word processors on computers, they used to be all keystrokes you had to remember, now most people don’t even know the cut and paste keystrokes, they hit the “menu button” with the mouse.

Greg

Greg Elmassian said:

Vincent, I would say that one reason for your “success” with DCS is really the handheld throttle, where there are buttons and screen information telling you what you are doing.

Greg

I am not using the hand held throttle, I am using the DCS APP on my Ipad.

The DCS Throttle is just as confusing as just about everyone else, but the APP for the Ipad is a breeze to use especially for a new user like myself.

I am simply saying that no matter who creates the newest, best battery/board combination for large scale had better make it operable from an Ipad type device.

It makes running trains (even a roundy round runner like me) fun again.

Ahh, but the app only does limited things, what do you have to do on the app to turn smoke on and off? Just curious.

And you can get apps for almost every system now, if you only need to control a few things.

On your statement that new products need iPad interfaces, that would start the big discussion of smart devices vs. traditional throttles all over again.

I get it you like it. I only use a smartphone app in roundy round operation at shows indoors. Outside, we have sunlight here in San Diego, nixes the screens, and also how the heck do you hold an iPad for several hours as you walk around? Just not my cup of tea, but I completely understand your preferences.

Greg

This is the throttle I was introducing.

https://www.iascaled.com/store/ModelRailroad/ProtoThrottle/MRBW-CST

Greg, for the smoke on the MTH app it is simply just an icon of a smoke stack on the screen.

it is really simple to use.

i just think using an iPad or smart phone is the most fun way I have found in years to operate a train, and the majority of the people already own one or both.

Craig Townsend said:

This is the throttle I was introducing.

https://www.iascaled.com/store/ModelRailroad/ProtoThrottle/MRBW-CST

Now that’s nifty. How about one that’s a beltpack?

Vincent D’Agostino said:

Greg, for the smoke on the MTH app it is simply just an icon of a smoke stack on the screen.

it is really simple to use.

i just think using an iPad or smart phone is the most fun way I have found in years to operate a train, and the majority of the people already own one or both.

As I begin to play with android apps for control I can see both sides of this debate. It’s kind of cool to use my tablet, and I can definitely see application for my indoor railroad, but outdoors, in an operations environment, it does not seem practical for the same reasons Greg mentioned. I’m still experimenting and my opinion might change - especially if I was using a small phone rather than a 7" tablet.

The good part of all this is that lots of people are looking at the challenge and developing some very cool stuff. The consumers will decide which systems survive. Notice I said systems plural. One size does not fit all in this world. There is room for multiple systems using different controllers. A standardized loco interface; like a DCC controller seems to be the common thread that will take hold.

Craig Townsend said:

This is the throttle I was introducing.

https://www.iascaled.com/store/ModelRailroad/ProtoThrottle/MRBW-CST

Thanks Craig, I’ve been seeing this pop up now and then. Have any actually been produced and sold? The saving grace for me, is these are actually cheaper than the throttles I use now so buying a couple is possible, although I’d want to interface it to my Zimo system. The NCE system is now mostly Z scale.

Greg

Greg,

They are looking at late 2018 for public sale. The last big hurtle is FCC wireless testing. Yes at $499 its not the cheapest throttle, but paired with some realistic sound decoders that’s going to be as close to running the real thing as possible. It fits in one hand as well. The only thing right now preventing me from wanting one is that is has to communicate with a DCC command station, and than that DCC command station does its normal stuff. If it becomes possible to have everything onboard, than it would be a game changer for me.

In looking up Iowa Scaled Engineering website, it looks like the are also working on another open source DC wireless throttle. Very simple, toggle for forward/reverse and a speed nob. More of instructions on how to build than a product for sale.

If you have the time, read the thread I linked earlier.

 

 

Thanks again Craig, contacted them. I have established a relationship with Zimo, so if they don’t support it now, maybe I can make that happen. My Zimo command station has Ethernet, USB and CANBUS, and a couple more.

Greg

Cool Greg. From what I’ve seen Iowa Scaled seems to be a pretty open company, and willing to work with fellow modelers. I’d be interested to here how it unfolds. This product and others often make me wonder if I should go back to HO modeling.

Interesting product. It uses an AVR microcontroller (same architecture as Arduino) and an XBee Pro module for communication. While their web site doesn’t have much information, the code on their GitHub repository reveals how it works. They have complementary receiver modules for various DCC systems. For example, here is the one for NCE Cab Bus: https://github.com/IowaScaledEngineering/mrbw-cabbus

Based on this, it wouldn’t been too difficult to build a receiver that converts to AirWire or other DCC system, or even build a receiver that would go right in a locomotive. Some means of programming the receiver would need to be worked out, though. Lots of possibilities. It’s nice that their products are open source.

Found this guy this morning. Turns out he’s on one of the Arduino mailing lists I subscribe to, but I’d never seen this project before.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUe_QrTJUipZdaUbjAS5OBQ

This guy built a cab, projected his layout through the window from a modified camera on the train…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF5I0KfoHRw

That actually looks fun!

Greg

Greg Elmassian said:

This guy built a cab, projected his layout through the window from a modified camera on the train…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF5I0KfoHRw

That actually looks fun!

Greg

Well that is way cool!

I have been running HO trains on a modular layout with Digitrax DCC using the Android App on my smartphone for the last few months and must say I kind of enjoy it, nice not to have to put out a lot of money for a controller. Having operated my Largescale battery powered RC equipment still prefer this technology over track power methods. In looking at what may be the future has anyone had any involvement with Bluerail Trains lately. I have checked out their facebook pages, again I like that it doesn’t require a large expenditure in other equipment. This video shows a large scale layout running on Bluerail from the facebook pages. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-ZJeS3U67Q

BlueRail is purported to be working on something new in conjunction with another manufacturer that’s supposed to be pretty cool. What that is, I haven’t a clue. However, I know folks who have been using BlueRail in large scale and have been quite pleased. I don’t know how its sounds compare to modern DCC decoders or anything like that. It’s important to note that currently the sound plays through your phone unless you link on-board bluetooth speakers to your phone (which in large scale isn’t much of a problem). I want to play around with BlueRail as well, but I figured I’d wait until they announced what this new stuff is before getting too heavily involved with it.

I’ve found my phone to be perfectly adequate for running trains. I use mine when operating at a friends’ HO line, and also when programming my decoders via JMRI as it saves having to jump back and forth between windows to check changes being made. I’d love to see more customization in terms of the user interface on the phone. For instance, I use F7 as a brake on my throttles, which I have to apply in order to stop the train. On my phone-based throttle (WiThrottle), I have to swipe from one screen to the next to get to the page that has my F7 brake function, swipe back to blow the horn, then back and forth, etc. I’d prefer to have more functions on one page. I think that’d be something that would be easy to write software to do, so I’d like to see more advances in that arena. Give me a graphic user interface that’s a digital representation of a locomotive cab and I’ll be a very happy camper. (The physical throttles linked to above are equally cool!)

For me, I see DCC becoming more of an underlying architecture controlled by user-friendly applications. The DCC manufacturers have got the “hows” of motor, light, and sound control figured out. No sense in re-inventing the wheel, if you ask me. Let them do their thing well, and come up with a more user-friendly way of controlling it. Think along the lines of what Mac and Windows did to computers. The core language was already there–they just came up with user friendly, transparent ways to control it.

I’ll be the first to admit I’m a sucker for technology, especially when it comes to controlling trains. I’m always going to be looking for the next cool thing to come along.

Later,

K

Kevin, you state the phone interface is perfectly adequate, then you state: " For instance, I use F7 as a brake on my throttles, which I have to apply in order to stop the train. On my phone-based throttle (WiThrottle), I have to swipe from one screen to the next to get to the page that has my F7 brake function, swipe back to blow the horn, then back and forth, etc. "

Wow, that is a perfect example of why I only use the phone interface for roundy round.

Also, while playing recently I realized that my NCE and Zimo throttles can not only be used without looking at them, but one handed.

No way I could use the phone one handed to “push buttons” or never look at it.

I get the “excitement” and “cost reduction” of using a cell phone you already have. I do not see it as “better” in any way for me. I have 4 old cell phones for using at shows and with kids. I have 2 tablets for people who really need to hold something the size of a small pizza.

I love technology, but don’t adopt it just because it is new or different.

Anyway, I thought it funny on how you thought swiping screens back and forth is “perfectly adequate” to apply the brakes, hopefully no one does this to a real locomotive!

Greg