Large Scale Central

3d printing

An open note to Bob.

If I understand correctly, Bob you are the moderator of this site.

First thanks for a great job in keeping the site going.

If nothing else putting up with us all should earn you a gold star… or even a plastic one… or something…

At some point, you may wish to consider adding a forum for 3d printing.

While it may be a bit soon, It has potential to be a disruptive technology for our hobby.

so far I’ve seen windows and people being printed. While not everyone will get involved with 3d printing, I believe we are only at the beginning to see what can be done.

I’ll agree with Clair. It would be a great place to share STL files for railroad related items. They say within the next 10 years that 3D printers will be in over 60% of the households in the USA.

As the 3D printer get refined, the prints will get a lot better. I have seen PLA prints used as masters for lost wax type of castings in brass and aluminum. The ideas of printing detail parts is endless.

Great idea I agree with Clair and Rodney. Rodney is already being able to make 3D items and my machine should be up and running by the end of the year. It would be a great place to share and introduce new items for everyone.

You got my vote!!!

Chuck

The open discussion part of the suggestion is a great one. The implementation of an FTP site (to facilitate up and down loading files), and keep this site clean and free of the kinds of things we all don’t want on our puters is another issue.

Bob, it is your call, but I know which way I would go.

Bob C.

How about rapid prototyping in general? 3D printers, 3D routers and laser cutters too?

Will I get flamed if I say that current technology is really cool however the fun (for me anyway) is not letting a computer model it for me. I have to grasp hold of all current advancements with my career however modeling is a hobby for me. My modeling is simple and making use of what normally would be waste materials at times. Not trying to derail this thread only saying its cool stuff if you got the cash “and know how to tell it what to do” is the key it will perform perfectly as long as you have E’lectricity. I can still cut styrene by candle light while reading a book in the other hand if the electric fails.

I’ll be in my corner for announcing that I’m that I’m simple and technology is moving faster than the human brain…(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/gary_buchanan/depressed.gif)

Shut up Rooster!

What is discussed here will seem a completely obvious necessity at some time in the near future.
Eventually the technology may be at the center of our hobby as far as custom detailed models go and manufacturers may be more in the business of starter sets and providing standardized model components while 3rd party smaller businesses provide limited runs of finished custom models.

Andrew

Well the technology is here and is advancing rapidly. It has been/is being/will be used by modelers to make perfect parts that look absolutely real. It is a great boon to the model builder but is it modeling or is it computer programing? With the common availability of cheap printed parts scratch building will be reduced to nothing more than “kit” assembly in my opinion.

Not to really compare modeling with the great works of art but is a computer generated portrait of the Mona Lisa on a par to the hand made rendition, I don’t think so but there again that is just my opinion.

Model contests of the future should be really interesting determining who is the best programmer. Maybe they will continue for a while with an actual “hand made” category until all the dinosaurs become extinct.

If you hadn’t figured it out yet I am firmly in “Roosters” corner on this topic. I think we will enjoy it while we can because soon all us dinosaues will be gone.

Rick

There’s long been a similar “debate” in the machinists’ community about CAD, laser cutting, etc., vs. good old fashioned “doing it by hand.”

I have nothing against modeling “the old fashioned way.” I think those are skills that are valuable to have. However, there’s a distinction that needs to be drawn between learning a skill because you have to vs. because you want to.

I think advances in technology allow the modeler to make that distinction in more and more arenas. And that–to me–is a good thing. It allows the modeler to concentrate on those aspects of the hobby he/she finds enjoyable without having to deal with the headaches of those areas where–absent technology–they’d be mired in tedium or simply in way over their heads.I think the end result is better modeling. It’s a hobby. It’s supposed to be fun.

Case in point:

(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/eastbroadtop/EBT7/EBT743.jpg)

(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/eastbroadtop/TRR5/TRR509.jpg)

I spent the better part of a year (on and off) scratchbuilding the first model shown. Lots of research, climbing over photographs and a surviving “sister” locomotive, all kinds of fun stuff. I enjoyed the process, and I’m proud of the results. Then Bachmann announces a commercial version of that same locomotive. I spent probably about a month total making minor cosmetic tweaks, repainting, and weathering the second loco. By “rational” standards, I should be more “proud” of the first one because I scratchbuilt it. But–to me–that’s not the case at all. I’m equally proud of both models. For me, my sense of accomplishment comes when I set the model on the track and look at it through a camera lens. That’s what I enjoy most about this hobby. It doesn’t matter how much or how little work was required on my part to get to that point.

I know I’ll never have the machining chops to scratchbuild a live steam locomotive. I’m cool with that. If, on the other hand, I can draw the components on a computer screen, press “print,” and end up with parts that fit and run well together, then I’m now enjoying a scratchbuilt live steamer. Sure, I didn’t turn the dials myself, change the tool bits, etc., to get the end results, but there’s no way I could have achieved those end results if I had. It’d be a pile of scrap metal on my shop floor. Instead, I’m at the track breathing butane vapors the same as the guy who’s still using a 1911 vintage lathe to turn every last screw as well as the guy whose only “labor” in getting his steamer running was opening the box.

I think there will always be a healthy respect for those who “do things by hand.” I think that’s natural. I have a lot of respect for folks who possess skills I do not. But the hobby isn’t about what I think of others, or what others think of me. It’s about the enjoyment I get from my models. If anyone else wants to scoff at my second C-19 model compared to my first because it’s not scratchbuilt, that’s their thing. For me, both models are on equal footing, because both fulfill their purpose the same.

I personally see 3D printing as a fantastic benefit to the hobby. The possibilities are–literally–endless. I see it enhancing current modeling skills more than replacing them. Sure, there are those who won’t be driven to learn “the old way” of doing things perhaps as much as they otherwise might, but when the bottom line is what ultimatley runs on the rails, not how it got there, who’s to care?

Later,

K

It is not a matter of ‘programming’ verses modelling. It’s just a different set of tools, a more refined way of modelling with software in which the efforts can be made a resource and shared. If you really want to be a puritan you could go back to whittling your models with a pocket knife or building them from old toenail clippings if you really want to.
There will always be an appreciation for something that was hand made without the aid of modern technology that is not an available data file. The young dudes will baulk and say: WOW! He done it all ‘old school’ AWESOME!

Andrew

As with any hobby, in fact most things in life, there will be for and against. There will always be folks who wish to construct their models by hand or engineering principles and those who will take advantage of another way.

Hands and sight make modeling hard for many of us old stagers: locomotives, no, but kitbash rolling stock, yes, as far as I can manage.

I am only just trying to get my old head around this new technology but there is, it seems to me, a great future for modelers here and it could eventually solve, as far as I can see and hope, many of the issues presently aired about spare part availability.

The 3d printer posts will not be the be all and end all of our great hobby but I am sure they will form a good part of the fine and interesting future modeling projects generally seen here on the Forum.

The one nice thing about 3d modeling and the 3d printers is that you can rapidly re-produce another part if you need to. Just like it takes a certain skill set to model by hand, as some of you are incredible at. It does take a certain amount of skill to model on the computer. I am in no way comparing one to another as I rather get my hands dirty then stair at a computer screen, which I do 5 days a week designing products. But, once I have designed something and it is saved, I can print out another copy for anyone that wants one.

I love the idea of an FTP site to share IGS files.

As soon as I have a chance I will be printing some people

Clair, et. al: Instead of a 3D printing forum, how about something more general like “Technical Modeling” or something similar, which would include laser cutters, metal sintering, maybe even CNC, etc. as well as 3D printing? Like has been stated above, I think any of these technologies are useful in our modeling endeavors. Heck, my EBT boxcar kit was laser cut, and everyone thinks those are somewhere on the line between scratchbuilt and a craftsman kit.

Thanks Bob.

There are actually two pieces to this, one is a forum the other place to store \ download patterns.

I suspect it is only a matter of time before library(s) become available.

It would be nice if they were open source (free for uploading \ downloading).

I don’t know the implications, but this site would be an ideal place to access such a library.

Bob McCown said:

Clair, et. al: Instead of a 3D printing forum, how about something more general like “Technical Modeling” or something similar, which would include laser cutters, metal sintering, maybe even CNC, etc. as well as 3D printing? Like has been stated above, I think any of these technologies are useful in our modeling endeavors. Heck, my EBT boxcar kit was laser cut, and everyone thinks those are somewhere on the line between scratchbuilt and a craftsman kit.

I like this idea, as I use Sketchup quite a bit to draw models out before I start cutting plastic. I could share the trials of learning how to use sketchup, etc. This would make it easy for a new comer to easily reference this type of information.

BTW “digital modeling” (is that the right term?) can be just as complicated and frustrating as traditional modeling.

There is a free Flash 3D file viewer that can be embedded on this website to display 3D files stored on this server.
That would be nifty!

http://www.sculpteo.com/en/developer/webapi/embed/viewer/

Andrew

Bob McCown said:

Clair, et. al: Instead of a 3D printing forum, how about something more general like “Technical Modeling” or something similar, which would include laser cutters, metal sintering, maybe even CNC, etc. as well as 3D printing? Like has been stated above, I think any of these technologies are useful in our modeling endeavors. Heck, my EBT boxcar kit was laser cut, and everyone thinks those are somewhere on the line between scratchbuilt and a craftsman kit.

I’m for it. I cut some “really?” materials on the laser. The same routine will be followed on the CNC router. Motto: who knows, unless you try.

Craig has the right of it as far as the modeling goes. Some “digital models” can be very challenging to produce. I have even seen models that there is NO manufacturing process by which they can be made (although SLA comes close). I agree with Craig in that I also “model” most of my modeling projects before I start. Saves a ton of mis-steps. I use one of the Big Three modeling packages, but although I have never used it, I am told by many that Sketchup is relatively easy to learn and works well. I would also like to see an open source FTP site for file sharing. I don’t think it will take long to have a fair library of parts available.

The down side of this as I see it, small detail/kit manufacturers like Bob Hartford are going to take a kick in the shorts. The only advantage they have, being they do metal castings, is just that. Their product is metal, although for a price iMaterialize (www.imaterialize.com) will do SLA in several metals (don’t have any pricing specifics).

I would be interested in hearing from Bob whether he would be willing to investigate the difficulties of adding an FTP site, and whether the security issues it brings with it are worth the effort. I do recognize that this site is a hobby for Bob, not a full time enterprise.

Thanks Bob for all your effort to make the viewing public happy. :slight_smile:

Bob C.

Boy, ask and ye shall receive…

I don’t see the commercial kit manufacturers taking much of a hit. Quite the opposite, actually. Laser-cut kits have revolutionized the craftsman kit industry. I think 3D printing will eventually do the same for detail parts. I was reading the other day where one company is printing wax masters to use for lost wax castings. You no longer have to build a master, make a mold of it, and cast the wax master over and over again. Just print out however many masters you need to make the pour worthwhile and go for it. It’s likely you could 3D print the entire casting tree in one fell swoop.

I think what you’re likely to see is an upswing in modelers learning 3D modeling software as another modeling tool in their arsenal. I’ve never gotten too much into casting my own parts because the labor it takes to make the mold, cast, clean, etc. is often more than the labor of just making a small handful of identical parts. With 3D printing, that paradigm has completely shifted. Now, I can sit down in front of the computer, draw the part, and say “print 8 copies.” Trust me, I’m looking forward to that.

But where I really think this has potential is in terms of figures. I envision a software package that allows you to pose a figure, clothe it, select the scale you want, and hit “print.” I see add-on libraries of period clothing, facial features, body types, etc. that would make it very easy to populate your railroad in any scale. We may be a few years off from something like that, but the foundation for doing that kind of work is already in place. My dad’s working with 3D sculpting software which allows at a basic level much of what I envision. (I forget the name of the software.)

I say “bring it on!” and I hope we’re able to build something of a repository here for these various files. Crowdsourcing modeling on a whole new level.

Later,

K