Large Scale Central

3 Truck Shay with sound on DC

Problem Solving
#1

Just wondered about the advisability of running a factory DCC equipped Bachmann 3 truck Shay with Tsunami sound on a DC layout. I have no plans to adopt DCC.

  1. Will it run

  2. Will the sound card work

  3. What functionality will be available from the factory fitted sound card on DC

Alternate plan is to fit a Phoenix PB11v6, that is actuated by the loco’s cylinder mounted factory chuff sensor and reed switches for bells and whistle.

Would this be a better bet. I here the factory chuff sensor can be problematic. Your inputs are eagerly awaited. Max

#2

You could also use a DC MyLocoSound soundcard. They are quite popular on geared steam locos of all types. You can use our web site at www.mylocosound.com or contact our UK distributor, Peter Spoerer Model Engineers in Norfolk. The US distributor is Del Tapparo at G Scale Graphics.

Regards

Peter Lucas

MyLocoSound

#3

Yes, Yes, and I think it will do the whistle toots when starting.

The Mylocosound won’t hold a candle to the Tsunami in your Shay.

Try it, you will not have triggering from magnets, and I am pretty sure it’s not using a chuff switch, but these locos have mechanical chuff switches which are temperamental.

I think you will be fine. There will be a higher starting voltage since the sound card needs to come up first, that means the microprocessor, you should get sound and motion about 6 or 7 volts.

Greg

#4

Thank you Peter. I’ll look into it. Not sure about the bell and whistle sound though. Greg, there seems to be a lot of conflicting information about the factory fitted Tsunami sound installation. On A.N.Other forum the consensus (from an old thread) seemed to be “rip it out and put a different make in” and “it’s derived from a small scale card and does not like the voltages used in the garden”. Not confidence inspiring. But I take in what you say.

My decision to make is this -

  1. Do I install a Phoenix PB11v6 sound card, c£300+ dealer fitted in the UK, in my existing 3 (die cast) truck Shay. I really cannot find concise info on fitting - even the Phoenix site/manual is conflicting on this specific installation - to do it myself and save c £75+.
  • or -
  1. Do I ship over from a reliable US source a NIB 3 truck with factory Tsunami sound at a landed and tax/handling fee paid price of £420 and sell off my existing (nice clean boxed with all accessories, packaging and paperwork) loco to compensate the price.

1 is the easiest risk and logistic wise, 2 would be the much cheaper option, with similar functionality, but with the risk I end up with a bag of nuts based on what I have read elsewhere.

Ho, hum,what to do ? How much do I want a loco with sound ? Max.

#5

MyLocoSound does have triggering from magnets. Del Tapparo at G Scale Graphics does a US$99 kit for trackpowered locos which includes the necessary reed switches, the soundcard and everything else you need. Like Phoenix, you can trigger the grade crossing whistle sequence and the bell by placing magnets under the track where you want these sounds.

Also MyLocoSound triggers the chuff from a loco chuff switch or from the back emf across the motor, your choice. Hence you can use the chuff switch and, if it jams in the middle of an open day, you just press a button on the remote control to switch to motor chuff input.

Regards

Peter Lucas

MyLocoSound

#6

I have looked at the MyLocoSound wiring diagrams, and even if the system did indeed use BEMF, it could not detect it, since it is always in parallel with track power or the controller.

So, I cannot see how it uses BEMF, it most likely does what the other older style cards do, is measure the difference between the voltage applied to the motor over time and detects increasing or decreasing voltage and the rate.

I believe it might be possible to detect BEMF while connected the motor is also to a motor controller or track power, but it’s not been done cheaply yet, and this is a low cost sound card.

(If the manufacturer does indeed claim to have BEMF please show me where, page 7 of the steam manual states:

“Choosing the chuff. Some locos have a chuff trigger; an internal switch which closes three or four times each time the wheels rotate. If your loco has one of these then you should connect it to the F7 terminal and use it to trigger the chuffs generated by the soundcard. Do this by pressing the 0 button and two beeps indicate that the chuff cam is in use. One beep indicates that the chuff rate will be determined by the soundcard from the motor voltage. When using a chuff cam, the chuffs will not switch on until the motor voltage, at the M1/M2 terminals, gets up to 0.4 volts.”

Again, the sound quality of this card is not on par with a Phoenix.

The admonitions of the DC voltage sensitivity of the 2 truck stock sound card are true, it will stop running at about 21 volts track voltage.

If this is a concern, I would get a new loco, the new sound card in the 3 truck is improved.

Greg

#7

21 volts? That seams rather high. Or is the new Shaty geared differently then the first run, 2 truck, Shays? I usually run mine at around 14 volts, maybe as high as 16, but that’s about it. These things were draft horses, not race horses.

#8

Yep, most people do not have an issue, especially on DC. On DCC layouts, some locos need a bit higher speed to achieve a prototypical top speed, but this is mainly diesels.

I thought the gearing was identical, but I have only owned the 2 truck, but the replacement trucks fit both the 2 and the 3 so it surely seems that the same gearing is in effect.

Greg

#9

Greg,

Thanks for the response about MyLocoSound but you are incorrect. We do use back emf to detect increasing or decreasing load on the loco. This is easily demonstrated by setting the controller to a constant voltage and hence constant speed. Then use your finger to resist the loco’s motion (as if it was climbing a hill) the chuff rate will drop.

Most of our customers don’t have your electrical knowledge so we stick to “Motor voltage” as a more understandable term in our instructions rather than “Back emf”.

Sorry you don’t think the sound quality is as good as Phoenix but have you heard the upgraded Universal Steam soundcards we released a couple of months ago? And at less than half the price.

Regards

Peter Lucas

MyLocoSound

#10

It’s good to know that you do indeed use BEMF, may I politely suggest that you change your web site to reflect this rather than only indicating that it is responsive to voltage? I doubt you will confuse your customers, BEMF is a very common term in trains today.

You could say that the system uses a combination of voltage and BEMF to closely simulate what a real train would do.

Anyway, it’s good to know and I will adjust my comments accordingly. I have not heard the upgraded cards, so I will endeavor to do so. One thing I do know is that it takes a lot of microprocessor power and memory to get the highest audio quality, and cpu power and dram and flash are all not cheap when it comes to high resolution sound.

And I will admit that Phoenix is getting long in the tooth. I’ll have to re-evaluate your sound cards so I give a fair opinion.

Regards, Greg

#11

Greg,

Thanks. I will take up your suggestion.

Regards

Peter Lucas

MyLocoSound

#12

I have a Mylocosound Diesel card and it has 3 different diesel sounds programmable via a TV remote control. I didn’t like it in the S4 I first put it in so I swapped it to a railbus and changed the tune to a gas mechanical and it is great in that. I really like being able to sound the bell and horn at will.

I like the mylocosound but Phoenix is better but of course a phoenix is 3+ times the cost so there is no comparison.

I have a 3 truck shay with factory sound on a DC track powered RR and it sounds pretty good but without DCC I know I’m only getting half the sounds. I bought this loco used and I think it has other problems but that is another story.

Tonight I was running my 2 truck shay with a phoenix system in it and that one has more sounds that activate when they want and with start up voltage. The 3 truck does the same but just doesn’t sound as good plus it takes much more voltage to get it moving on the tracks and I think this is due to the DCC board coming into play.

To the OP. Yes the loco and sound will work on a DC layout but the sounds available will be limited without the DCC.