Well, I don’t feel so bad now, I did indeed try everything. My take is that you cannot turn off the autochuff and use the second input.
Make the dealer eat it, for all your grief.
Greg
Roger Bush said:
OK, here is the final chapter in this saga:
04/08/19 decoder received from Massoth. Paperwork included states: Dekoder has been reprogrammed……20 min. Today I installed the reprogrammed decoder in the tender and guess what? It performs exactly as it did last July!
So now what? I don’t know. I have a decoder that in total cost $259.90 including all the numerous shipping charges. And as far as I’m concerned it is worthless.
What did I learn from this experience? (1) The manual for the decoder is misleading and perhaps false. Apparently it cannot be programmed as I wished. (2) Support from the US Massoth dealer and from the Massoth company in Germany is extraordinarily poor.
Roger - Please ship your Massoth S Sound Decoder to me and I’ll set the appropriate CVs to turn off the chuff Simulation on CV196: CV196 = 0 for Clock Generator using a Hall Sensor; or, CV196 = 255 for Decoder Chuff Simulation. I do DCC power and power/sound installations for people using Massoth components, and have all the Massoth equipment including Massoth Decoder Service Board and Massoth Service Tool Software. CV196 is the standard setting for either using the decoder’s chuff simulation or a hall sensor. I just installed a Hall Sensor Massoth #8242030 into a customer’s LGB Uintah locomotive to enable 4 chuffs per wheel revolutions which was better sounding than the decoder’s simulation chuffs. I don’t remember from all your prior postings whether your LGB loco has a Hall Sensor wheel already installed, which most LGB steam locos with factory-installed sound have, or whether you installaed two sensors and a magnet on the loco’s truck?
My Address: Old Dominion Railways, 1210 Summit Road, McLean VA 22101
Let’s get this decoder finally fixed for you…gratis!
Tom
Tom - Thanks for your generous offer. Before launching into this again, will you be able to disable chuff from track power AND enable chuff from GND and Clock 2 solder pads using a reed sensor switch as shown in Illustration #9 on page 15 of the eMOTION S Decoder Installation Manual?
My loco does not have a Hall sensor installed. I will be using a reed sensor and magnets on a tender wheel.
Thanks, Roger Bush
Roger Bush said:
Tom - Thanks for your generous offer. Before launching into this again, will you be able to disable chuff from track power AND enable chuff from GND and Clock 2 solder pads using a reed sensor switch as shown in Illustration #9 on page 15 of the eMOTION S Decoder Installation Manual?
My loco does not have a Hall sensor installed. I will be using a reed sensor and magnets on a tender wheel.
Thanks, Roger Bush
Roger - I can only respond with what’s quoted in both the Massoth eMotion S Decoder’s Installation Manual and the combined XLS/XLS-M1/XLS Onboard/LS/S/S-PluG Configuration Manual…you should also have received both that came with your decoder. If you don’t have the Configuration Manual, the PDF can be downloaded. CV 196 is used for enabling all six of these Massoth decoders’ chuff, either simulation mode or using a pulsed generator/hall sensor with Clock #1 and/or Clock #2: Setting “255” for chuff simulator; or, “0” for Clock #1 (Massoth 3 lead pulse generator/hall sensor) or Clock #2 (2nd pulse generator or reed switch as in Illustration #9). As I mentioned, I just installed the Massoth Pulse Generator/Hall Sensor unit in the motor block of an LGB Uintah loco and on the Massoth XLS Sound Decoder changed CV196 = 0 to turn off the decoder chuff simulation.
Question: Does your connection to Clock #2 using a two wire reed sensor activated by one magnet fastened to the wheel axle produce good sounding chuffs for you? If so, then the only adjusted needed to your decoder should be to set CV196 = 0 to turn off the decoder’s chuff simulation. Massoth does state for using Clock #1 to only use their pulsed generator/hall sensor because it works like the ones in LGB factory-installed sound units, a three lead electrical sensor and a round circulating magnet that plugs into the Massoth XLS/LS/S three lead connector on the top of these decoders.
If you want to send the decoder to me, I’ll first read CV196, and then assuming it’s “255”, change it to “0” and then test it. If you can easily remove the reed sensor from your loco’s truck, leave the soldered connection intact on the decoder and, after the CV 196 update, I’ll test the decoder’s operation with a magnet. Othewise, unsolder the reed sensor from the decoder and I’ll connect a spare reed sensor I have from numerous past Phoenix sound installs and test the operation. Or, you can just unscrew the truck with the reed switch and magnet on it, and the connection to the decoder left intact, and ship the entire truck and connected decoder to me…should all fit into a USPS Priority Mail Flat Rate Small Box for less than $8 shipping…plus add $200 - $250 additional insurance if you want to protect the shipment from loss or damage.
This should be an easy fix…theortically. Do you have any other questions or concerns?
By the way, I don’t know what Massoth dealer you bought the decoder from and why they couldn’t resolve this for you. Regarding the Massoth Technical Support folks in Germany, I have found they are not the most responsive or speediest in responding to my emails. So, I buy most of my Massoth components from a Massoth Dealer in Germany, and I pass on my technical inquiries to him, and if he can’t answer them, he’ll contact the Massoth folks. He has more pull with Massoth than I do, or any of us individuals here in the USA…and he communicates German to German language too!
Tom
Tom - I have not installed a reed sensor or magnets as there was no point in doing so if the “automatic” chuff could not be disabled. I have leads soldered to GND and Clock 2 solder pads. After the automatic chuff is disabled, momentarily touching the ends of the leads to GND and Clock 2 can be used to verify a chuff sound once this feature is enabled.
I have just returned from the PO. The decoder is on the way! USPS Priority Mail. Expected date of delivery is Friday, April 12. Tracking number is 9505510728579100217510.
Many thanks, Roger Bush
Tom, I did all that already. Exactly the same settings and same procedure. I tried a lot more than you have written. Also if you look at the settings as received, (printout) they don’t all make sense.
I even experimented with other CV’s that might be linked…
The issue is turning off autochuff turns off the clock #2 input - no chuffs … having clock #2 on, you cannot disable autochuff…
when the system chuffs, you get autochuff PLUS what the reed switch does…
Perhaps before promising you can make it work, even though the dealer, Massoth, and I could not make it work, please read this page: https://elmassian.com/index.php/dcc/specific-manufacturers/massoth
If you still feel you can add something, I’ll be all ears as to your progress. I do wish you success and perhaps you will discover something that the 3 other entities could not achieve.
Greg
Greg Elmassian said:
Tom, I did all that already. Exactly the same settings and same procedure. I tried a lot more than you have written. Also if you look at the settings as received, (printout) they don’t all make sense.
I even experimented with other CV’s that might be linked…
The issue is turning off autochuff turns off the clock #2 input - no chuffs … having clock #2 on, you cannot disable autochuff…
when the system chuffs, you get autochuff PLUS what the reed switch does…
Perhaps before promising you can make it work, even though the dealer, Massoth, and I could not make it work, please read this page: https://elmassian.com/index.php/dcc/specific-manufacturers/massoth
If you still feel you can add something, I’ll be all ears as to your progress. I do wish you success and perhaps you will discover something that the 3 other entities could not achieve.
Greg
Greg - I appreciate your technical comments but please don’t attribute your statement to me: “Perhaps before promising you can make it work…” I never stated anything about promising to make it work, just that I’d be willing to take a look at it to see if I could help out a very frustrated Massoth decoder owner. It’s Roger’s decision whether to take me up on my offer or not. In fact, I use a Massoth Dealer in Germany to buy my Massoth components and he’s very knowledgeable about LGB and Massoth products, and has direct contacts with Massoth Technical Staff in Germany. So, I will also pulse him about your findings about the Clock#2 not working if the decoder’s Simulated chuff was disabled.
My experience with adjusting the Massoth XLS sound decoder has been with turning the decoder’s chuff simulation off and using Clock#1 connected to a Massoth Hall Sensor (not Clock#2) and it worked great. So, I’ve told Roger that based upon your efforts and conclusions about the conflict between the Simulation and Clock#2 use, then it appears the only alternative is to use a Massoth Pulsed Generator/Hall Sensor connected to Clock#1 instead of using the one reed sensor and magnet on the loco like Roger tried to do. Then the chuff simulation can be turned off.
Additionally, for anyone using Massoth sound decoders and planning to use an existing hall sensor in an LGB sound loco, or planning to install the Massoth Hall Sensor, there’s an error in the hard copy of the Massoth XLS/LS/S decoders’ Configuration Manual which states: Adjust CV195 for the number of magnet poles required to play one steam chuff, 1 = one chuff; 2 = one chuff per two magnets; 4 = one chuff per four magnets. The Massoth Pulse Generator/Hall Sensor Installation Manual for eMotion S/LS/XLS decoders has the correct CV 195 Clock#1 settings: 1 = 4 chuffs per wheel revolution; 2 = 2 chuffs.
Tom
I agree that the hall sensor might work, also perhaps clock 1 could be made to work, but I also tried that (my page is only about 1/3 to 1/4 of what I tried)
Sorry I used the word promised, but I hope you do get a whack at it, perhaps you will triumph over it when the dealer, Massoth and myself failed. I hope so, but I fear not.
Regards, Greg
Roger - I’m going to send you an off-line email but since I’m currently online with this forum posting in the General Forum Topic, I thought I’d also share my findings with ALCON, as we said when I was active duty Navy officer (All Concerned).
I heard back from my Massoth Dealer in Germany who has a direct line and standing with the Massoth folks. The finding is that the Massoth decoder’s Clock#2 is to be used only for one specific locomotive that needs it,
- The clock#2 is only to be used for a special locomotive, the Ballenberg, for the control of the steam cycle when the locomotive drives in the rack. For the clock control only the clock input #1 should be used.
My comment: The Massoth Installation and Configuration Manuals do not explain this.
-
The Clock#1 chuff rate threshold can be adjusted with CV193.
-
Besides using Clock#1 with a three wire Massoth Pulse Generator/Hall Sensor, can the Clock #1 be used with a 2 wire chuff sensor? Answer: Yes!
My comment: The Massoth Installation and Configuration Manuals state to only use a Massoth Pulse Generator/Hall Sensor on Clock#1 which is a three wire unit. Again, the Massoth German to English translations leave some room for improvement!
I’ll test using a two wire chuff sensor on Clock#1 with the Simulation Chuff turned off. If it works well, then that’s your solution. So we don’t need to worry about the double chuff caused by using Clock#2.
Lesson Learned…consult the decoder manufacture for technical guidance and hopefully they understand the customer’s issue/problem/question…in this case they did not when Roger shipped the decoder to Massoth in Germany for assistance.
Tom
Okay - The Massoth S Decoder is working fine using a two wire chuff sensor and magnet. CV196=0 which turns off the chuff simulation. I had to first do a decoder reset using my Massoth PC Interface Tool/Massoth Service Tool system…I couldn’t at first get the CV196=0 to take. There had been so many people involved making CV changes trying to help out that it needed a reset. I also unsoldered the wires that Roger had installed on the bottom solder connections which were for using Clock#2. Instead I’m providing Roger with a Massoth cable connector he can use that plugs into the Clock connector on the top of the decoder…he can then solder the two wires from his chuff sensor to this connector.
Note: It’s best to use the Massoth PC Interface Tool/Massoth Service Tool software to make CV adjustments on Massoth decoders, especially in this troubled-decoder situation, although I first tried using my Massoth DixMax Navigator which will usually work fine.
Case closed.
Tom
So the bottom line is use clock#1 only not matter what the documentation says, and, as I have seen on the European sites, get the massoth service tool and slam one of the files down it’s throat (rewriting a bunch of CVs) because a simple reset really does not fully reset the decoder.
Greg
Greg Elmassian said:
So the bottom line is use clock#1 only not matter what the documentation says, and, as I have seen on the European sites, get the massoth service tool and slam one of the files down it’s throat (rewriting a bunch of CVs) because a simple reset really does not fully reset the decoder.
Greg
++++++++++++++
Greg - I tried several times to change CV196=255 (chuff simulation) to CV196=0 (chuff sensor) plus several other CVs using the Massoth Service Tool but most wouldn’t permanently take. So I finally did a CV7=55 basic reset and then I was able to make the changes. Let’s face it, Roger’s decoder has been through the ringer with so many people (Roger/Massoth Dealer/Mohammed; you; Massoth Technical-Germany; myself) trying to make CV changes using different DCC systems…no wonder it needed a reset when I tinkered with it. So I wouldn’t necessarily ding Massoth for that issue. But you’re right, some of the Massoth documentation’s German to English translations are a little vague or inaccurate. And while I’ve made many successful CV changes to Massoth decoders using the Massoth DiMax Navigator handheld controller and my Piko Central Station, the surest, fastest and easiest approach for volume CV changes is to use the Massoth Service Tool software (must also use the Massoth PC Interface device). I’m sure there are many other decoder brands that also have their quirks. And, under the circumstances, it was extremely helpful that I have a Massoth Dealer in Germany to consult with on Massoth issues…he knows the products and also has a direct communications channel with the Massoth Germany folks speaking German to German!
Your experience parallels those that are common on GscaleCentral (in the UK for people that aren’t familiar) and one of the moderators is pretty much an expert on Massoth, and he is sold on using the tool and the “sheets” and fine tunes them until they work.
It appears to me that using the templates programs all the CVs specified.
I indeed did a basic reset, and it took a bit of playing to get CVs to write consistently. My Zimo unit was most successful as the programming current is programmable, although the NCE has more control and flexibility over the 3 different programming modes available in service mode.
Suffice it to say I’m not real impressed with the Massoth decoders and definitely not for people who do not want to become experts in programming.
Greg
At long last the saga finally reaches the last chapter. I have received the decoder back from Tom White who programmed it to do what I expected it to do last July - and it now does exactly that! I have installed it in the tender of my mogul and I now am able to hear chuffs determined by reed sensor and magnets on a wheel rather than the “automatic chuff” as advertised by Massoth. This will likely be the only Massoth decoder I will ever own!
Roger Bush
But now you know how to tame the beast. The hard part is over.
Make sure you archive the complete list of CV settings, so if the decoder is ever reset, you can set it back.
Am I correct in assuming it is now using the Clock 1 input for the chuff trigger.
In any case, congratulations!
Greg
Greg Elmassian said:
Make sure you archive the complete list of CV settings, so if the decoder is ever reset, you can set it back.
Am I correct in assuming it is now using the Clock 1 input for the chuff trigger.
In any case, congratulations!
Greg
+++++++++++++++
Greg - I’ll respond for Roger since I set the CVs for him. Yes, I found out from my Massoth Dealer in Germany that Clock#1 can work with a two wire reed sensor besides the Massoth three wire pulse generator/hall sensor. I used the first two connectors: Ground; Clock1. The Massoth unit also uses the third connector +6.5v. I provided Roger a Massoth three wire cable so he can solder his two wire chuff sensor to it and then just plug it into the decoder’s clock connector instead of having to solder the wires to the bottom of the decoder. I also provided him a print out copy of all the decoder’s CVs read out: Contains the current setting of each CV along with their default and the setting maximum and minimum range available…a nice feature of the Massoth Service Tool.
That’s great Tom… so again my takeaway is you cannot use clock 2, even though nowhere in the documentation this is stated.
Also, I assume you got a copy of the printout of the CV’s as provided to Roger, and there were ones set to very strange values, did you notice this?
Greg
Greg - Specifically, the Massoth S Decoder’s Installation Manual states on page 14: …“Clock2 is the connector for a second pulse generator, e.g., for cog wheel steam loco Ballenberg. A reed switch (illustr. #9) can be used as a generator input in this case.” So, the Manual is incorrect about using Clock2 for a reed switch…doesn’t work properly as Roger Bush had found. Roger did not send me a copy of the read out of all the decoder’s CVs that you prepared, instead I did my own using the Massoth Service Tool. I didn’t review all the CVs but focused on adjustments to the CVs I thought would make the simulation chuff work better. Roger complained that the simulation chuff started before his locomotive even started to move, so first testing an S Decoder I had in stock, I installed it on my test stand motor block, and the S Decoder’s Simulation chuff worked fine. Without having Roger’s locomotive to adjust the chuff rate to the locomotive’s movement, it would be hard to make the appropriate CV adjustments on Roger’s decoder…he did provide me with the voltage his loco would start to move, 6.5 volts. But his primarly interest was to use the Clock2 and a reed sensor for creating the chuff sound, so that’s what I then focused on and received guidance from my Massoth Dealer in Germany.
Yep, the clock 2 thing is the major lesson learned here, agreed.
Also, many mystery CV’s although I asked you if you got the CV sheet from the Massoth dealer, and found many of the settings did not make sense… values out of range according to the documentation, etc.
Anyway, we all learned something, but my biggest takeaway, is I won’t go near a Massoth decoder, unless I get the service tool and rewrite everything, and it seems that many DCC systems have difficulty programming some Massoth units. With a Zimo and an NCE, if I cannot program it, then to me, I really look for an alternative. This experience and other of my Massoth experiences have not been good, and I will not purchase a Massoth system to make things work.
Greg