Terry Burr said:My RailBoss Plus controls incorporate both a soft and a hard shutoff circuit. The soft circuit warns you that the battery is near discharge so you can get the train back home before the built-in battery pcb shuts you down. The hard cutoff shuts you down completely, making this useful for those that do like to use LiPo batteries.
LiPo for our trains is not a good idea (in my opinion). We have no need for such high discharge rates and unless you add something to the loco there is no way to monitor the voltage in the battery to have it shut down at low voltage. ..... Terry
Thats good to know Del!
Mark, the only real benifits (for me) of LiIon over NiMH is size and weight. I do all my battery installs in the loco so they really help out with that. And your right about battery memory in the Nickel class batteries as long as the battery is taken care of ie: charged, discharged & stored properly, which I don’t do 
I’m still reading on the LiFe batteries but as of right now I like my LiIon for trains and LiPo for RC cars.
Cordless Renovations says their Lithium-Prismatics are made with Sanyo cells.
I use Eneloops in my transmitters, remotes, etc.
I never thought of getting a pack made out of them. Prolly really spendy!
Wow, I didn’t expect this discussion to get all political. 
Thanks, Shawn, for that vote of confidence. You read the part about me not being trusted with a light switch, right? 
Four letters, indeed! mutter, grumble.
OK, applications: Can these all be done with NiMh, or will some need to be Lithium, and which Lithium chemistry?
- Bachmann Bug Mauler, no sound, battery and R/C receiver in the tender… And the answer is???
2, Aristo Mike, Vandy tender, no sound, battery and R/C receiver in the tender… And the answer is???
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Aristo Dash-9, no trail car, no sound, battery and R/C receiver on board… And the answer is???
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USAT S-4, no sound, no trail car, battery and R/C receiver on board… And the answer is???
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USAT GP-7 no sound, no trail car, battery and R/C receiver on board… And the answer is???
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Aristo Mallet, Sound, Battery and R/C receiver and sound card in the Vandy tender… And the answer is???
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Aristo SD-45, sound, no trail car, battery and R/C receiver on board… And the answer is???
Steve, just go with the Li-Ion batteries and be happy. Lithium battery technology is now the industry standard for everything from cell phones to the cars we drive to power tools used in construction. There are literally millions upon millions of lithium cells in use worldwide today. Like any battery, you don’t want to mistreat it. That’s why we were taught very young not to throw batteries into a fire. You don’t smoke while filling your gas tank; don’t go tossing your lithium batteries around like hot potatoes. The Li-Ion packs I use have very good protection circuitry built in that keeps you from over-charging or over-discharging them. Get a dedicated charger for them (as little as $25) and with how we use them, they’ll be just as reliable as the NiCd or NiMH cells. (Better, in my experience, actually. I’ve not had a Lithium cell go bad yet. I would lose at least 5 or 6 NiMH cells each year.)
Granted, each of the locos you list is easily large enough for 12 or even 16 AA-sized NiMH cells if you wanted to go that route. You can go to Radio Shack and get some AA battery holders and use those. Your call. I’ve used pretty much every battery technology that’s been on the market, starting with lead acid motorcycle headlight batteries. The Li-Ion packs I now use are by far the best in terms of performance, size, weight, and reliability.
Later,
K
Another vote for LiIon here. Price is reasonable. Charge times are reasonable. Great power to size ratio. Great at holding a charge to be ready when you are.
Finally, a straight answer. Thanks, Kevin and Jon.
My 2 cents Steve. All my trains are LiIon. I grew up with NiCads switched to Nimh and now use LiIon.
Nimh and LiIon are about the same size ( LiIon a wee bit bigger) but the LiIon is better technology.
And… I also use Lipo but only in things that fly and float as the batteries are removed for charging. Things can go wrong with LiPos but it’s not something to be afraid of. Yes you do need a special charger but I bought one a couple of months ago that does all the different types of chemistry and will do 4 packs at the same time and it cost about $100. And… the lipos come with the special pigtail that plugs into the charger. That’s because each cell of 3.7v is monitored by the charger while charging. Lipo…4 cells = 14.8v where as the others are more like 12 cells to get 14.4v
Kevin,
An email trail with Rick of Battery Renovations over Li-Ion and heat got an interesting recommendation from him. My situation is in the panhandle of Florida where summer temps can reach 100 degrees with 99% humidity. Very strong solar heating as well. I specifically asked about the K-27 with on board batteries in the tender. His recommendation was not to use Li-Ion batteries unless there was forced ventilation, they would exceed temperature limitations.
IF I choose to go that route I will use two fans, one supply and one exhaust.
My only wish is that the vendors of such items would better publicize such limitations clearly in their advertising, which they usually don’t.
Bob C.
Bob Cope said:
Kevin,An email trail with Rick of Battery Renovations over Li-Ion and heat got an interesting recommendation from him. My situation is in the panhandle of Florida where summer temps can reach 100 degrees with 99% humidity. Very strong solar heating as well. I specifically asked about the K-27 with on board batteries in the tender. His recommendation was not to use Li-Ion batteries unless there was forced ventilation, they would exceed temperature limitations.
IF I choose to go that route I will use two fans, one supply and one exhaust.My only wish is that the vendors of such items would better publicize such limitations clearly in their advertising, which they usually don’t.
Bob C.
So, I’m curious Bob. What did he say the temperature limitations of his Li-Ion batteries are?
I’m pretty sure that was a CYA response.
Could be Jon. I have heard 60C as the “certified” rating for maximum operating temperature for Li-Ion…But this is only the point where charge/power rapidly diminishes. Any battery will suffer in high temps.
Just to be clear…I have nothing against Li-Ion, just I can get NiCd’s for so much less $$$ and no concerns over weight or size.
The fancy prismatic Marketing hype is just that the cells are squared off instead of being cylindrical. This allows a pack to be slightly smaller Physically for the same capacity, since the cells can pack tighter. They are not LIPO, they are not LIFE. LIFE is a different chemistry and was developed by Sanyo as I recall. They are not popular in the RC hobby industry yet, and since we live off the pricing drops created by the larger volume hobbies, well… They still employ the same industry standard cell technology similar to the normal 18650 lithium cell which makes up most packs on the market and which is rated by almost everybody at 2600 or 5200mah, depending on series/parallel configuration. Do not believe inflated value claims of higher current ratings made by some suppliers. The only way to get more out of the standard cell is to individually hand match each cell in a pack, which is very costly. You do not need a new charger if you already have a lithium charger. And like Del said, always find out if the charger you consider includes a proper power supply, otherwise comparisons are moot.
Be careful about using hybrid NiMh/Alkaline AA size cells such as those sold by ENELOOP and other brands.
The construction of all rechargeable AA cells is different to that of other cells such as SubC in that the AA (and AAA) size cells all have a choke fitted internally. They are designed for digital cameras and as such are guaranteed to hold 85 % of charge for 12 months. That is they are intended for low current draw situations only, but, can give short bursts of energy, such as firing a camera flash rather having a sustained current draw such as we use in our trains.
The advice I have been given by the Sanyo agents here in Australia is to only use them where the current draw is less than 1 amp continuous. Sure the cells will give you more amperage but at the cost of cell life in terms of how many recharges you can achieve.
I have been using NiCd batteries since 1984 and find them to be the better value still than NiMh cells. For a start NiCd have double the life span in terms of recharges than NiMh. 1,000 compared to 500 max for NiMh. The (so called) “memory effect” of NiCd cells can be avoided quite easily with the use of modern peak detection chargers.
I do have one test loco (an LGB # 50 dismal) with a Li-Ion pack that has been trouble free for 2 years. Although it does not get much use, the pack does not seem to self discharge like the NiMh batteries that I used to have in the loco.
I do sell the occasional Li-Ion pack but the bulk of my battery sales remain SubC NiCd’s.
Answers for Steve F: When you think or talk about converting the list of locos you have provided, the important idea is consistency. Think of it as a single system with many parts. Choose a radio system that allows controllers to be shared among many locos and that is expandable. Choose a battery type and stay with it for all locos. Even better, chose a voltage for your packs and stay with that for all also. Finally be systematic and consistent with the battery plugs, charging plugs and methods of charging. If , for example, you choose 14.8 Lithium( where much of the market sits), the battery packs can nearly be interchangeable. You will not need to worry about voltage settings for charging. Your charger will fit all your locos. Your charger will charge all your locos. All the units you listed will easily allow fitment of a 14.8 lithium in either 4400, or 5200 mah capacity. The only exception is the s4, which will work fine and will fit a 14.8 2600 under the hood with the pack arranged in a 2x2 stick config.The S4 can still be charged by the exact same 14.8 charger as the other locos with larger packs, it will just charge up faster. No settings to change, no worries about problems from plugging in the wrong charger, or some such thing. 14.8 brick configs can easily be made removable, 14.8 5200 flt packs are also available and will easily fit in the larger locos. Using the industry standard 2.5 by 5.5 ( Tony and I decided on this plug type and size in the 80’s) coax dc plug for charging will ensure easy compatibility, short proof connectivity, and reliability. There is no reason to use AA type cells. As noted earlier there is sufficient room to use packs built with the standard 18650 Lithium cell, provides 7a or more continuous draw, Contains onboard protection for over and under charge, excellent shelf life and reliable long term performance. I started doing this in 1989.used it all, including ultra high grade pro news camera nicad packs for a long time. Started using Lithium -ion pretty much all the time about 4-5 years ago. Have done close to 200 steam and diesel installs with Lithium- ion. NIMH is fine except for the high self discharge and short term storage problem. If you run trains weekly,follow a strict charge and maintenance schedule you will be fine, but Lithium in is better for long term (2-3 months shelf time) non use and the cost penalty is now effectively zero. Been there , done that for all the locos you list, your needs are not unusual in any way, so go with what is known to work. It does not cost anymore. If you feel insecure with electrons in any form or use, honest and straight answers are available.
Jonathan/Electric Steam Modelworks
Battery R/c for large scale since 1989
Jonathan, Thanks for your answer. It is the information that I was looking for.
Thank you for your post, Jonathan.
Very well said and I certainly support your statements. I’ve been using Li-ion’s for many years. Although, none of my applications are permanent “onboard” installations. All battery packs are removable from the tenders, follow battery - R/C cars or those that are onboard in single units such as motorcars, railbusses and track inspection powered units. The roof of each those units can be removed for battery change. I find that type of installation is much more convenient for the type of running I enjoy on my railroad.
Battery voltages used are 11.1 to 18.5 Li-ions with amp hour ratings from 2600 to 8400. I do like long run times because at this time of the year, I generally start trains running at 7:30 - 8 am and shut them down after dark. Depending on the locomitive and manufacturer, many will run all day without replacing batteries or with the larger units pulling heavy loads, batteries may need replacing once or at the most twice. When they discharge, I just carry a new battery to the train, take off the coal load, oil bunker, battery car lid or roof of the unit and plug in the charged battery.
For all voltage ranges, I’ve been using the standard Smart Chargers designed for Li-ions from All-Battery.com.
Del,
My original message to Rick (copied from email):
Rick,
I keep seeing differing opinions on what is a safe temperature to operate
Lithium batteries in. As a retailer/manufacturer, what is your
recommendation for maximum temperature in a closed environment. I am
planning on converting my Bachmann K27 to battery power, but an hesitant to
use Lithium due to temperature restrictions.
I live in the panhandle of Florida, and will give you a ‘concept’ of the
temps I have seen. On a mid summer day, ambient can reach 100 plus. I have
measured with an infra red thermometer 145 degrees on track in late August
(past peak solar). I have run my loco on summer days and had a difficult
time picking up the loco and tender after running a couple of hours in the
sun.
What is your ‘Professional’ advice on Lithium usage in this environment?
Bob C.
Rick’s response (copied directly from the email):
“Lithium battery-packs have a ambient working temperature of 40 - 90 degrees
and that’s how if feels to the PCB inside the pack and not what the air temp
is outside. Here in the Midwest our ambient temperature is much higher
because of the humidity, but like in Arizona where the humidity is extremely
low you can run lithium battery-packs at 90-100 degrees because it feels
like 80. Whenever we sell or install a lithium battery within a loco I
always ask where does my customer live, and here’s why. One of my dealers
(Stan Cedarleaf) lives in Prescott, AZ which is about 6000 ft. above sea
level. Stan, runs two of my CR-1715 18.5V 8400mah lithium battery-packs in
two of his GP38-2 pulling about 20 cars. Now Stan runs all day and the air
temp is usually around 95 degrees, but here’s the kicker. Stan puts a 12V
fan in each of his loco’s to keep the air moving. Air flow can drop the
ambient temp inside your loco between 7 & 10 degrees, so I would either
forgo the lithium battery and stick with Nimh or put a 12V fan inside the
tender and run in the mornings.” …followed with a link to one of his installations.
I am not a battery expert, but I am unsure of the effect humidity has on batteries. Or is it the electronics built into the battery pack? Either way, it seems to me that Li-Ion batteries in a closed environment with elevated temperatures and high humidity (especially in Florida) are a bad mix. I have been outside on days in the summer where the ambient temp is 98 degrees and the relative humidity is in the 90-95% range, real soggy. I am certainly not looking for a combination that I can only run in the winter.
Bob C.
“Interesting” response, as usual. I’m no battery expert either, but I do have a EE degree, and I do know how to read a spec sheet. I use Tenergy Lithium-Ion 18650 cells. Their spec sheet reads "Discharge temperature: 60 deg C (140 deg F), Humidity: 60 ±25%. I would certainly imagine it is possible for you to exceed these specs in Florida.
I’ve looked at 18650 specs before, and this is the first time I’ve ever seen a humidity spec. Since I live in Colorado, and the humidity is almost always less than 35%. Are my batteries supposed to be failing or degrading? Doesn’t appear to be the case. Too much humidity, I can see where that could cause some degradation of cells.
But back to temperature … specs are specs. They don’t say anything about which state you live in, or how your skin feels in the heat due to humidity. Ambient temperature doesn’t change with humidity. It is ambient TEMPERATURE. I really don’t think a battery cares if it’s a dry heat or humid heat. Amusing.
Del,
That was my impression as well. IF I go to Li-Ion batteries, I will place two fans in the tender. One fan as a supply fan and one as an exhaust fan. This will provide a positive air flow through the tender minimizing the additional effects of solar heat on the black plastic. As the summer heat is pretty much here, I am going to put the tender in the yard in the sun and put my A/C thermometer poked inside and see what it reads. I am sure I will see 10-20 degrees cooler with two fans moving air through the tender.
Thanks for confirming my suspicion that humidity has no real bearing on a battery.
Bob C.