Answers for Steve F: When you think or talk about converting the list of locos you have provided, the important idea is consistency. Think of it as a single system with many parts. Choose a radio system that allows controllers to be shared among many locos and that is expandable. Choose a battery type and stay with it for all locos. Even better, chose a voltage for your packs and stay with that for all also. Finally be systematic and consistent with the battery plugs, charging plugs and methods of charging. If , for example, you choose 14.8 Lithium( where much of the market sits), the battery packs can nearly be interchangeable. You will not need to worry about voltage settings for charging. Your charger will fit all your locos. Your charger will charge all your locos. All the units you listed will easily allow fitment of a 14.8 lithium in either 4400, or 5200 mah capacity. The only exception is the s4, which will work fine and will fit a 14.8 2600 under the hood with the pack arranged in a 2x2 stick config.The S4 can still be charged by the exact same 14.8 charger as the other locos with larger packs, it will just charge up faster. No settings to change, no worries about problems from plugging in the wrong charger, or some such thing. 14.8 brick configs can easily be made removable, 14.8 5200 flt packs are also available and will easily fit in the larger locos. Using the industry standard 2.5 by 5.5 ( Tony and I decided on this plug type and size in the 80’s) coax dc plug for charging will ensure easy compatibility, short proof connectivity, and reliability. There is no reason to use AA type cells. As noted earlier there is sufficient room to use packs built with the standard 18650 Lithium cell, provides 7a or more continuous draw, Contains onboard protection for over and under charge, excellent shelf life and reliable long term performance. I started doing this in 1989.used it all, including ultra high grade pro news camera nicad packs for a long time. Started using Lithium -ion pretty much all the time about 4-5 years ago. Have done close to 200 steam and diesel installs with Lithium- ion. NIMH is fine except for the high self discharge and short term storage problem. If you run trains weekly,follow a strict charge and maintenance schedule you will be fine, but Lithium in is better for long term (2-3 months shelf time) non use and the cost penalty is now effectively zero. Been there , done that for all the locos you list, your needs are not unusual in any way, so go with what is known to work. It does not cost anymore. If you feel insecure with electrons in any form or use, honest and straight answers are available.
Jonathan/Electric Steam Modelworks
Battery R/c for large scale since 1989
Jonathan, Thanks for your answer. It is the information that I was looking for.
Thank you for your post, Jonathan.
Very well said and I certainly support your statements. I’ve been using Li-ion’s for many years. Although, none of my applications are permanent “onboard” installations. All battery packs are removable from the tenders, follow battery - R/C cars or those that are onboard in single units such as motorcars, railbusses and track inspection powered units. The roof of each those units can be removed for battery change. I find that type of installation is much more convenient for the type of running I enjoy on my railroad.
Battery voltages used are 11.1 to 18.5 Li-ions with amp hour ratings from 2600 to 8400. I do like long run times because at this time of the year, I generally start trains running at 7:30 - 8 am and shut them down after dark. Depending on the locomitive and manufacturer, many will run all day without replacing batteries or with the larger units pulling heavy loads, batteries may need replacing once or at the most twice. When they discharge, I just carry a new battery to the train, take off the coal load, oil bunker, battery car lid or roof of the unit and plug in the charged battery.
For all voltage ranges, I’ve been using the standard Smart Chargers designed for Li-ions from All-Battery.com.
Del,
My original message to Rick (copied from email):
Rick,
I keep seeing differing opinions on what is a safe temperature to operate
Lithium batteries in. As a retailer/manufacturer, what is your
recommendation for maximum temperature in a closed environment. I am
planning on converting my Bachmann K27 to battery power, but an hesitant to
use Lithium due to temperature restrictions.
I live in the panhandle of Florida, and will give you a ‘concept’ of the
temps I have seen. On a mid summer day, ambient can reach 100 plus. I have
measured with an infra red thermometer 145 degrees on track in late August
(past peak solar). I have run my loco on summer days and had a difficult
time picking up the loco and tender after running a couple of hours in the
sun.
What is your ‘Professional’ advice on Lithium usage in this environment?
Bob C.
Rick’s response (copied directly from the email):
“Lithium battery-packs have a ambient working temperature of 40 - 90 degrees
and that’s how if feels to the PCB inside the pack and not what the air temp
is outside. Here in the Midwest our ambient temperature is much higher
because of the humidity, but like in Arizona where the humidity is extremely
low you can run lithium battery-packs at 90-100 degrees because it feels
like 80. Whenever we sell or install a lithium battery within a loco I
always ask where does my customer live, and here’s why. One of my dealers
(Stan Cedarleaf) lives in Prescott, AZ which is about 6000 ft. above sea
level. Stan, runs two of my CR-1715 18.5V 8400mah lithium battery-packs in
two of his GP38-2 pulling about 20 cars. Now Stan runs all day and the air
temp is usually around 95 degrees, but here’s the kicker. Stan puts a 12V
fan in each of his loco’s to keep the air moving. Air flow can drop the
ambient temp inside your loco between 7 & 10 degrees, so I would either
forgo the lithium battery and stick with Nimh or put a 12V fan inside the
tender and run in the mornings.” …followed with a link to one of his installations.
I am not a battery expert, but I am unsure of the effect humidity has on batteries. Or is it the electronics built into the battery pack? Either way, it seems to me that Li-Ion batteries in a closed environment with elevated temperatures and high humidity (especially in Florida) are a bad mix. I have been outside on days in the summer where the ambient temp is 98 degrees and the relative humidity is in the 90-95% range, real soggy. I am certainly not looking for a combination that I can only run in the winter.
Bob C.
“Interesting” response, as usual. I’m no battery expert either, but I do have a EE degree, and I do know how to read a spec sheet. I use Tenergy Lithium-Ion 18650 cells. Their spec sheet reads "Discharge temperature: 60 deg C (140 deg F), Humidity: 60 ±25%. I would certainly imagine it is possible for you to exceed these specs in Florida.
I’ve looked at 18650 specs before, and this is the first time I’ve ever seen a humidity spec. Since I live in Colorado, and the humidity is almost always less than 35%. Are my batteries supposed to be failing or degrading? Doesn’t appear to be the case. Too much humidity, I can see where that could cause some degradation of cells.
But back to temperature … specs are specs. They don’t say anything about which state you live in, or how your skin feels in the heat due to humidity. Ambient temperature doesn’t change with humidity. It is ambient TEMPERATURE. I really don’t think a battery cares if it’s a dry heat or humid heat. Amusing. 
Del,
That was my impression as well. IF I go to Li-Ion batteries, I will place two fans in the tender. One fan as a supply fan and one as an exhaust fan. This will provide a positive air flow through the tender minimizing the additional effects of solar heat on the black plastic. As the summer heat is pretty much here, I am going to put the tender in the yard in the sun and put my A/C thermometer poked inside and see what it reads. I am sure I will see 10-20 degrees cooler with two fans moving air through the tender.
Thanks for confirming my suspicion that humidity has no real bearing on a battery.
Bob C.
Bob/Del… I run the Li-ion in 100+ degree heat at 5000 feet altitude with hot sun beating on the battery cars and tenders. Temperature in the battery cars can get up to 165 degrees… I have had the REVOLUTION receivers overheat but never an Li-ion battery overheat and shut down…
I take the roof off to allow air to circulate and that solves the problem… I just installed fans in the car that causes the most problems… No results of the tests yet…
Just my findings…
Yes, but that is a “dry heat”. And I hadn’t even considered altitude … Probably just don’t worry about it. Batteries probably aren’t the limiting factor. Given the conditions of Arizona vs: Florida … I’ll take Arizona every time. New thread?
Stan,
Although I do not necessarily intend to have multiple battery packs (I usually only run a couple of hours at a time), your statement above
“…I just carry a new battery to the train, take off the coal load, oil bunker, battery car lid or roof of the unit and plug in the charged battery.”
is along the lines of how I was planning to operate. However, operation does not remove the heat issues I raised in the first place with Rick. Removing the roof of a battery car is OK when running for your own enjoyment, but when you are putting on a public display that is not what they want to see.
Thanks both Del and Stan, your responses have helped a lot, and I apologize for hijacking the thread, not intended.
Back to your originally posted topic…
Bob C.
" Given the conditions of Arizona vs: Florida … I’ll take Arizona every time."
Me, too, Del… Florida 100 degrees with 100% hum-a-didity ain’t no phun no how…
Bob, you sure didn’t hack the thread… It’s all part of the information process… And I understand your comments about the way each one of us run. our trains That’s why it may be “right for us” but not someone else…
Hello everyone,
Our Lithium-Ion cells temperature rating is between -4 to 122F, but that doesn’t mean the PCB is? If the PCB shut’s down due to extreme temperature changes, so does the pack. The PCB will usually reset itself within 45 seconds, (depending on manufacturer) but if you don’t have constant air flow getting to the battery pack it will just shut down again. That’s why I always under estimate a lithium batteries performance when installed into enclosed environments.
Rick Isard
Cordless Renovations, LLC
RCS America
When it comes to battery temps, I can only speak for my installations, which are tight-quarter tenders with virtually zero airflow, run in Colorado and DC. We don’t get as oppressively hot as the southern states, but it still gets warm enough. I’ve never had a pack shut down for temperature issues, nor have I ever removed a pack that was anything more than just a bit warm. I don’t know if it’s because I’m not drawing that much current through them (my locos typically draw less than 1 amp) or what. Take that for what it’s worth–one person’s experience.
If you’ve got the room to introduce some kind of airflow into the installation, by all means do so. It will keep everything happier. But I’d not sweat it if you can’t. In those cases, I’d just run without, and if it gives you fits, revisit.
Later,
K
Be interesting to hear experience of Liths from someone in the Far East operating with them.
They get quite extremes of weather. NOT the we in the UK should worry…sun? what sun.?
Rain? …we are Ark building this year. and other years and not much different.
Certainly this year, so far, has been a washout.
By far east I’m assuming you mean the east coast. I run both Li-on and NiMH batteries, but I’ve never actually run them on days where’s there’s extreme heat and humidity, say over 90 degrees, mainly because it’s just too uncomfortable for ME. I have run them on sunny days where it’s not too hot (in the 80’s) and haven’t had any problems although if I park an engine I will lift up the coal load on the tender so the heat doesn’t build up in the tender where all the electronics are and it’s probably similar to Kevin’s installation, (tight quarters, no airflow).
No… THE Far East…from the UK geo position…i.e India, China, Indonesia, Hong Kong and Japan…et al.
Ross Mansell said:I always thought I was the farthest east one can go. My day was just ruined ;)
No... THE Far East...from the UK geo position.......i.e India, China, Indonesia, Hong Kong and Japan.......et al.
Talking of the Far East. Hollywood managed to get the title of the Film KRAKATOA EAST OF JAVA incorrect.
It’s actually WEST of Java :) But then, accuracy has never been their forte.
I, like Ken, don’t run in the heat.
But having said that, the Nimh’s I use obviously don’t have shut down boards.
The Airwire boards however do shut down (on occasion) when too hot.
Ross Mansell said:I had nothing to do with the naming of that film Ross.:) :) ;)
Talking of the Far East. Hollywood managed to get the title of the Film KRAKATOA EAST OF JAVA incorrect. It's actually WEST of Java :):) But then, accuracy has never been their forte.
Well, all I can say about hot is a little story from a week or so ago running at the club. I had my Connie (still track powered) running with a Spectrum undec tank, my two bashed wheel cars and the Bachmann Spectrum crummy. The sun was so hot on the black tank car, when the 3 year old went to grab the tank car, he let go so fast he didn’t even derail the train. The Florida sun, even on bearable days, can be real strong. Thought you might enjoy the anecdote.
Bob C.