Large Scale Central

120V AC questions

Electronics Power and Sound
#1

SO I need to start thinking about getting power out to the layout. I am coming off the garage sub panel with a single circuit to run my back yard. I have a couple questions. It is a long run from the garage to the backyard and I am going to do it in conduit. When it reaches the back yard it will split into two runs. One to the patio and layout, the other to a future pong and the green house. At the layout I will have a small air compressor, irrigation timer, battery charger, low voltage power supply, and an outlet for what ever else I might need. The patio will have an outlet and some lighting. The pond will have a pond pump and the green house will have a heater only in the early spring. So that’s what I am thinking my needs are.

  1. should I run a 20A or 15A circuit?

  2. in conduit is it better to run individual wires instead of like romex?

  3. if individual wires, can I run only black and white wires from the panel and then drive individual ground rods at the four end points for grounding so I can save on some wire costs?

Anything else I should know?

#2

Devon

I’d recommend conduit. You cannot legally pull Romax through conduit, single conductors only. I’d suggest you run 20A circuits with 10AWG stranded THNN wire. You’ll need a neutral wire (white), one neutral can carry three line circuits. If it were me I’d run at the least two circuits, preferably three, in this circumstance three line wires (black/red/blue) one neutral (white) and one ground (green). Additionally these will need to be GFI circuits, this can be accomplished with GFI breakers installed in the panel verses GFI receptacles in most cases. Ground rods at each location are not required, simply connect the ground to your ground buss or UFER ground landed in your sub-panel.

Michael

#3

Michael,

You gave me a lot of great info. But I do still have one question. You say run a single green ground wire and that individual ground rods would not be needed. But CAN I have individual grounds at the end points and OMIT the green wire in the run from the panel? This is a lot of wire from the panel to the end points. I would say 150 feet between the two major areas. If I could sink two ground rods at the two main endpoints this would save a lot of wire expense. Isn’t a ground is a ground is a ground. I mean it doesn’t have to go to the panel does it. It doesn’t care where it enters the ground, correct?

To clarify there are two main areas of use; the patio/layout and the pond/greenhouse.

#4

Individual ground points would not be to code and potentially causes a ground loop situation which could be dangerous. Spend the money on the wire, or better yet, spend more money on an electrician.

#5

here is my idea of how to wire it.

After Michael’s and John’s suggestion I will run the ground back to the panel which is not shown in the drawing.

#6

Daktah John said:

Individual ground points would not be to code and potentially causes a ground loop situation which could be dangerous. Spend the money on the wire, or better yet, spend more money on an electrician.

OK that’s the info I was looking for. If there is a valid reason like this one then I have no problem doing it.

I am not against hiring professionals when there is a need or when I can’t do something myself. But I also don’t believe in hiring someone ot do what I am capable of doing on my own. Call me stubborn. I added a 700 sq ft addition to my house; basment and main level. The only hired work was the concrete, taping and mudding drywall and an engineer which was required by the building dept, and an electrician to connect the mains to the new panel which was also required by law. Everything else I did on my own, with no experience in any of it. With good advice and asking a lot of questions the building inspector, plumbing inspector, and electrical inspector all said I did as good or better job than most contractors. Why? because I am smart, capable, and have a vested interest in it being done right.

So I certainly appreciate and understand the suggestion to hire and electrician, and in most cases with most people I would agree, but this is a simple task and I am more than capable of doing it myself. And money is an issue. I don’t mind spending it if I need to. I don’t want to cut corners that shouldn’t be cut. But I also don’t want to give it away.

Please don’t take this the wrong way. I appreciate the advice, I really do. And since you don’t know me or my capabilities it is good advice. But I am more than capable of doing it once I understand what I need to do.

#7

OK

John or anyone else. I am reading about grounding the neutral (white) wire. Code says that the neutral (white) wire must be grounded to the ground in the main service panel and only in the main service panel. In my main panel this is the case. All of my bare copper ground wires and all of the neutral white wires are connected and inter mixed on the grounding bus bars. I know this is code because it was inspected and I asked the inspector. Now in reading the reason that the neutral is run back to the main panel is to prevent ground loops whereby the ground is being used to complete the circuit and that then creates the danger.

So when it is suggested to return the green ground all the way to the panel to prevent ground loops are you thinking that the neutral should be returned all the way? this is just for clarification. Becuase in reading that it sounds more like the neutral and not the ground wire.

Again I will do it right, I just want to make sure what right is without do something unnecessary.

#8

I believe that both the White Neutral wire and the green Ground needs to go back to the Panel. It never hurts to be super safe with 120 volts that can hurt you very MUCH.

Paul

#9

I suggest that you install a 240 VAC sub panel in the best out of the weather location, possibly 60 or 100 amp service. This way you will have mimimum voltage drop and amperage supply problems as you connect more electrical equipment at your remote locations. You will need to branch out from this sub panel which makes your job bigger, but do it right the first time.
Underground supply power cable is sufficient when burried properly and brought into the building correctly.
Just a few thoughts!!!

#10

Devon, The white wire (neutral) is the return path for the electricity, so you NEED to have that wire going back to the panel. The ground wire (green or bare copper) is there to connect to the metal case of your outlets and equipment, so that if something bad happens, the case doesn’t become live and fry the person who touches the case. Taking the ground back to the panel is the way to go, because you know there is a good ground there. Pounding a copper stake into the ground does not ensure you actually have a good ground.

The ground wire is a safety precaution. The black wire is hot, about 120 VAC. The white is neutral, the return path for power.

Edit. I was told in school, but I do not know if its true or not, that the copper ground stake, pounded into the ground, can be up to 50 feet long in order for it to make a good ground. It needs to be into wet soil so that it can shed electricity into the earth.

#11

Buddy don’t skimp.

I wired my shop, but we hired a certified electrician to make the run.

I asked for 2 20 amp lines, but my electrician wisely brought me 60 amps to a new panel inside. From there he trusted my wiring and beyond all odds, every thing worked!

I’m already planning on adding an extra circuit for new inventions, that good planning never saw. What used to take decades, seems to take weeks now!

Happy Rails,

John

Edited to ad a .

#12

Additionally, the GFI circuit breaker in the panel monitors leakage and the inequality of power between hot and the neutral wire.

Attempting to use something else for neutral will trip the breaker.

Do it right Devon… the fact you are doing this yourself is probably already a violation unless you pull a permit, so at LEAST do it to code.

Greg

#13

Devon;

I hate to say this, BUT…if you have to ask those questions about ground wires, grounding, black vs White, size of wire…

I strongly advise that you consider purchasing a book, usually available at builders’ supply shops, that explain the wiring you are considering, along with local electrical codes…buy it and you will have the answers to most of your questions.

Failing this…hire an electrition to either do the job of pulling the actual wire, and doing the hook-up, or advise you on how to do the job,…because you are giving the impression, by your questions, that you are about to fail code, or electrocute yourself and possibly others.

You are really on your own with the questions you ask…you have too much information, but not enough knowledge/experience to do the job yourself…SAFELY. This is beyond just low voltage, garden lighting…the guys here can try to help, but you need someone on the ground, at your place to advise you…BE VERY CARE FULL…

Fred Mills

#14

Devon Sinsley said:

…But I also don’t believe in hiring someone ot do what I am capable of doing on my own. Call me stubborn. I added a 700 sq ft addition to my house; basment and main level. The only hired work was … and an electrician to connect the mains to the new panel.

Devon, you’re a very able man, and we love you dude, and I personally HATE hiring people to do stuff I can do myself, but maybe at least get this electrician back out there to double check your work.

#15

Devon,

Please take my comment to heart and in a manner meant not as criticism, but just trying to help. I did my own wiring on my outdoor landscaping when my pool was remodeled and I was adding 110v lights inside walls and embedded step lamps. BUT I pulled a permit for EVERYTHING I did and I had my General Contractor father-in-law watching me every second. I did the work and he double-checked everything. The city inspector signed it off after looking at everything I did! I had no problem flipping the switch and knowing our family was safe. When I bought my present home in 1974 (built in 1953), we had a 100 amp service and the original owner had a small window air conditioner built into a wall in the den. When that AC started, the lights in the house dimmed! I knew then that I would eventually have to add a new and larger service to the house. When my father-in-law and I installed a larger force air heating and a full 5-ton air conditioner in the house, we had the new panels installed first. I had all kinds of machine tools and woodworking tools. I needed a sub panel in my garage. I knew this was going to be expensive and I also KNEW I couldn’t do this safely myself. I saved a few years to do this by a licensed electrician. I’m am glad I did! I never have regretted the $3000 I had to do this. And this is over 30 plus years ago. I added a 200 amp main panel to the house. I added a new stack to the roof above the new main and a huge wire coming from the new stack going to the power pole and into the panel. I have no idea of the wire size number, but it’s close to 3/4 to 1 inch in diameter. Also added a 100 amp sub panel in the garage to handle all of my heavy machine tools including a small 220volt milling machine, 220volt cabinet makers professional shaper (4 hp) and 1-1/4 diameter spindle and a 12X36 Clausing metal lathe. Also other incidental table saws, radial arm arm, Shopsmith…

30 years later and no electrical problems…only the cost of using too much electricity for my hobbies and machines. :slight_smile:

Just please think about what can happen if you for some reason miss something as you’re doing this. Mistakes with electricity are permanent and DEAD. You don’t even get a chance to say “Whooops”. OR Ah sh…!

#16

Fred Mills said:

Devon;

I hate to say this, BUT…if you have to ask those questions about ground wires, grounding, black vs White, size of wire…

I strongly advise that you consider purchasing a book, usually available at builders’ supply shops, that explain the wiring you are considering, along with local electrical codes…buy it and you will have the answers to most of your questions.

Failing this…hire an electrition to either do the job of pulling the actual wire, and doing the hook-up, or advise you on how to do the job,…because you are giving the impression, by your questions, that you are about to fail code, or electrocute yourself and possibly others.

You are really on your own with the questions you ask…you have too much information, but not enough knowledge/experience to do the job yourself…SAFELY. This is beyond just low voltage, garden lighting…the guys here can try to help, but you need someone on the ground, at your place to advise you…BE VERY CARE FULL…

Fred Mills

Well I really only asked two questions and one of them I already pretty much knew the answer to. I pretty much knew I would run individual coated wire in the conduit. The main question I really didn’t know was the ground issue. The other question was circuit amps but that was mearly for suggestion not because I didn’t know.

I knew which wire did what. I also know which size to run for each amp circuit. I am not a complete novice when it comes to electrical. As I said I have wired an large addition to my house complete with Bathroom GFCI and arc fault protection for the bedrooms. All witha permit and all inspected and all to code. In fact I was complemented on the quality of work. I installed my own 200AMP panel and 240VAC 70AMP sub panel in the garage. So really guys I am not a stranger to electrical and to wire a couple of 20AMP GFCI circuits is not a monumental task.

I will head the advice and run the ground back to the panel. That was the only area I wasn’t sure on.

I also appreciate the warnings and caution. Since no one really knows what I know, its better to offer the warnings than to not and have me light myself up. So I am not at all put off about the warnings it is appreciated.

#17

Good luck Devon. Keep us posted with progress pics when you find the time !

#18

And against all common reason, CA Code does not require a GFI for a pool light. In fact, a pool light will pop a GFI. Mine certainly does when we were testing the wiring and tried it using the circuit for the instantaneous hot water heater outside the bathroom, which does have a GFI. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

#19

" Rooster " said:

Good luck Devon. Keep us posted with progress pics when you find the time !

This will likely be one of the next things I do. Not so much for the layout but to get lighting to the patio which is next to the layout. Fortunately I already have all of the conduit so I can at least be stringing that up. I will keep you updated. Provided I don’t making shocking mistakes.

#20

Todd when my pond pump split it case, I handled the pump underwater with no issues. Its when I lifted it clear of the water, I became the electricity’s path to ground, and… Lets just say it wasn’t one my most pleasurable experiences.

Had I known the pump had split its case, I would never have handled it with power applied. I thought it was just clogged.