Large Scale Central

Carter Bros Coach Kits for $152

Modeling Rolling stock
#21

Kevin and Pete,

You guys are evil and Kevin I know you enjoy it. I am thinking the way to tackle this is to buy the kits and make the changes. The price is right and with the mods suggested I think I can have a very reasonable representation of my Brill coaches. Of course he sells the seats separate and I could then scratch build them in styrene and get the correct windows and weird siding.

Thanks both of you for the advice and help. These are high on the priority list. By next September I really want to have my box car, caboose, oil car, two coaches, and the #3 2-6-0 complete for a static display for the 2016 NP convention. The above photos are part of a complete photo of a mixed train with the above equipment. I have the box car done. The caboose is half done, the locomotive and tender are awaiting electronics (not preventing it from being displayed) and a hand rail. That leaves the oil box car and these coaches. So they are on the radar.

I did notice how easy it would be to cut a 13th window into the J&S coach where the stove is.

#22

Hmm, funny you should mention cutting in a 13th window… Something like this?

Of course, the distinguishing feature of the cars you’re modeling is the roof ends. Not only are they bullnose, but the ends are flat with rounded corners. As much as we have you jazzed about the Carter Brothers kits, the Accucraft roof lends itself to this. Imagine this coach with a 13th window cut in as shown above.

And some details on the ends:

The “stock” curvature of the Accucraft roof can be seen in the first pic of coach #3. The ends of this roof were heated over my stove burner and reformed until they were more flat-ish. (Wear gloves.) I had to do a little bit of work with some styrene strips, sanding, and filling to get the profile correct, but it worked out well in the end. Pete went one step further on a similar coach (EBT #12) and added the prototypically-correct 14th window, lengthening the car in the process. (No photographs of EBT #13 have yet to come to light, so my model is purely conjectural, based on photos #12 and other coaches which the Au Sable & Northwestern ran. Essentially, it meant I could be lazy and not have to worry about cutting extra windows into the car. I liked the board-and-batten siding and roof ends, though, so they had to be modeled.)

I don’t think it would be too difficult to “flatten” the ends on the Carter Bros. kits. You’d want to cut slices into the end so it looked more like a comb, then you could flatten the profile and attach them to some kind of frame for the end. I’d probably use 1/8" brass stock bent to form the curved corners and end.

Later,

K

#23

Hi,

Do these kits need anything besides trucks ??

Thanks Chuck

#24

Nothing major. Brass rod for the railings, door hardware, brake detail, roof vents; that kind of thing. (I don’t remember if mine came with clear plastic for the windows and clerestory windows or not.) Ozark Miniatures sells most of what you would need in that regard.

Bachmann, LGB, and Hartland sell suitable trucks if you’re looking for something on the inexpensive side. They have a 4’ 2" wheelbase in 1:20, which is short, but prototypical for narrow gauge passenger trucks. You can still buy the Accucraft trucks (5’ wheelbase) but they’re much more expensive. I think some folks have used Aristo Sierra passenger trucks as well, but they’re not easy to come by.

Later,

K

#25

I am thinking now of just purchasing the seats (65 of them) to do two 14 window coaches and a 7 window combine. At 14 windows with a seat missing at each end (the prototype has a stove at either end) that’s 26 seats per coach and 13 for the combine. If I do that and use the carter coach plans I can modify them to get the right windows, roof ends, and peculiar siding. It basically puts me back to square one only now I wont have to do the seats which honestly I was dreading.

#26

Devon Sinsley said:

Kevin and Pete,

You guys are evil and Kevin I know you enjoy it. . . .

I did notice how easy it would be to cut a 13th window into the J&S coach where the stove is.

Actually, it isn’t that easy. You’ll notice Kevin put new covering styrene around his window. It’s quite tricky to saw or cut out the windows in the heavy plastic. I have a rotary cutter - but it will wander if you are not careful (or if you are!) A proper CNC mill might do a better job.

But the coach is sized correctly, so you don’t have to do anything complicated to get the 13th window to fit - unlike my 14-window version!!

Incidentally, I have drawings of the Accu coach sides, etc. It wouldn’t be too hard to draw your Brill coach and have either Harald or Alan (G.A.L.) cut it for you with a laser. Alan does all the batten overlays in one piece (see attachment) so they are dead easy to fit and align.

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#27

Well no need to worry about battens. The prototype Brill isn’t batten board. It is plank sided but alternates between a wide plank and a narrow plank. On the original photo I can blow it up pretty good and its clear to see there are no battens. I also have a Brill ad with that car in it and the ad doesn’t look batten either, shows that same alternating pattern.

I think for the best bang for my buck I will at least attempt a modified version of the Carter coach. If I scratch build it I can easily lengthen the dimensions to add a 14th window. I can also from the get go flatten the roof and lengthen it to the ends. I would think if this is done from the outset it would be easier than modifying a kit or bashing the accucraft. I could at least start the process and all I would be out would be some styrene if it doesn’t work. If it works I can then proceed and buy the bits and details. If it doesn’t I can bash an accucraft with your guys help.

One thing I am seriously considering purchasing is the cutter thing that people are using for vinyl decals and stencils. If I do that then I would think it would be easier to bang out all the parts and redraw what needs to be redrawn (with the help of someone who knows how to do such things. . .I sure don’t).

#28

Devon Sinsley said:

. . .

I think for the best bang for my buck I will at least attempt a modified version of the Carter coach. If I scratch build it I can easily lengthen the dimensions to add a 14th window. I can also from the get go flatten the roof and lengthen it to the ends. I would think if this is done from the outset it would be easier than modifying a kit or bashing the accucraft. I could at least start the process and all I would be out would be some styrene if it doesn’t work. If it works I can then proceed and buy the bits and details. If it doesn’t I can bash an accucraft with your guys help.

I assume you are aware that the PDF’s for the whole coach are available? At least one person built a coach by cutting all the parts in styrene.

#29

Devon Sinsley said:

Well no need to worry about battens. The prototype Brill isn’t batten board. It is plank sided but alternates between a wide plank and a narrow plank. On the original photo I can blow it up pretty good and its clear to see there are no battens. I also have a Brill ad with that car in it and the ad doesn’t look batten either, shows that same alternating pattern.

. . .

Devon,

The first Brill coach photo you posted shows what we call a “board and batten” side. OK, they are wide planks with a narrow plank - actually the narrow plank (batten) covers the joint between adjacent wide planks (boards.) The same narrow planks are trim alongside the windows and extend down below the beltline to the bottom of the side. It’s identical to my coach #12, and kevin’s #13, pictured above…

#30

Pete Thornton said:

Devon,

The first Brill coach photo you posted shows what we call a “board and batten” side. OK, they are wide planks with a narrow plank - actually the narrow plank (batten) covers the joint between adjacent wide planks (boards.) The same narrow planks are trim alongside the windows and extend down below the beltline to the bottom of the side. It’s identical to my coach #12, and kevin’s #13, pictured above…

Pete,

Thanks for bringing the coach plans to my attention. I have had the plans for both version of both cars for at least two years now. Those MLS masters classes are great. I have been wanting to build them but the discrepancies in design compared to the Brill has made me hesitate (and hand cuting all those seats). I am glad this conversation has come up because it has renewed my interest in them and with yours and Kevin’s help I think I can make them into 14 window Brill coaches and be happy (and having the seats laser cut).

Now I don’t want seem like I am arguing but the batten board siding. . . do I have a wrong definition of batten board or are we seeing two different things. When I think of batten board I think of a wide planked side with small strips covering the joints. These strips are not flush with the planks but sit on top of them over the joints.

In this picture of a close up of that Brill Coach I see no battens as I define them. I see two wide planks then one narrow plank. They are all flush with nothing covering the seams. The two wide planks are the width of the window and the narrow plank is the same width as the space between the windows as you mention. I can see where you are saying that the narrow plank is one long plank that extend from the top of the side to the bottom. But I don’t see any battens as I understand them. On yours and Kevin’s 12 and 13 there are clearly raised battens.

I am seeing things differently or do I have a incorrect definition. I want to get it right when I build them. I figured I would scribe the sides to match what I see above with no raised battens. But if that is wrong this is a good time to be corrected.

#31

Pete,

I asked my wife and she is the final word (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif). She agrees with you. She says it has two wide planks and then a narrow plank covered by a batten just as you have said. I hate being wrong but this is the right time to be wrong, instead of building it wrong. I don’t see it but she says definetly and you say its so, and you obviously know a thing or two about car siding so I defer to you. It is board and batten.

Now here’s the best part, I like board and batten better anyway. I downloaded the board and batten plans thinking I would take artistic lisc. I think it adds more detail and depth. So I am happy to admit defeat and go board and batten.

#32

Board and batten with 2 wide boards and one narrow one. That is a cool detail.

#33

That’s a very common pattern, seen on passenger cars from Billmeyer & Small, Jackson & Sharp, Laconia, Carter Bros, Brill and others. The narrow board below the belt rail matches the spacing between the windows, while the wide boards under the windows are half the width of the window. If you look at my coach 13 above, you’ll see a similar pattern, though the spacing between the windows is wider than on the CR&N cars.

Here’s another version, without the belt rail:

Later,

K

#34

That’s what it is , its just more pronounced. Being 14 windows they must have squished leg room and put the windows closer together. That’s something to pay attention to.

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#35

Devon, I think your wife has good eyes. But it is always difficult to interpret old photos, especially if you only have one and it is blurry.

Devon Sinsley said:

That’s what it is , its just more pronounced. Being 14 windows they must have squished leg room and put the windows closer together. That’s something to pay attention to.

Sorry, but I have to disagree (again). The Brill coach looks like my #12, which is 40’+ long. The Carter Bros coach is only 35’ long (or 36’, I’d have to look at the plans, which I don’t have in FL!) So they didn’t squash the chairs close together - they made the coach long and used 14 windows.

My opinion is that you’d find the Carter Bros kit a poor start to a a 40’+ Brill coach. The Accucraft coach is a much better starting point, and is only $228.

#36

I just found that I have the complete instruction set as PDFs. If you don’t know how to find them (on MLS) send me a PM and I will see you get them.

One thing I did notice is the list of items not included in the kits, such as thin wood for battens. You can buy basswood parts for dollhouses, etc., in craft stores, so that shouldn’t be a problem. I know I bought a few packs from somewhere - the 1/2 round for the belt rail was one item I couldn’t make myself.

The cars do need 1/4 round stock for the corners, which is almost impossible to laser cut. I bought a dowel rod (1/2" I think, by 3 ft) and screwed it to a piece of flat wood. I then ran the first 12" through my mini table saw to cut it into quarters length-wise. [It’s a long time since I built my kit! But I do have the photos of the construction if anyone needs them. and perhaps the supplier of the other parts.]

#37

Well Pete,

I will take your advice. As someone who has done both the coach kit and the Accucraft conversion and knows where I need to go to get to the Brill coach I trust you that you would know which is the better starting point. The thing with starting with the Accucraft is It comes with the trucks and other details. I would think in the end there won’t be that much of a price different.

The two CR&N coaches are actually still alive though they look nothing like there former self. They are the White Pass & Yukon 214 “Lake Spirit” and 216 “Lake Black”. According to their website the coaches are 45’ 7" now they were extensively rebuilt when WP got them so I don’t know if that was the original length or the rebuilt length.

#38

It’s doubtful they would have changed the length of the coaches, as that would be major work and require a completely new frame. The 45’ length probably includes end platforms, so the carbody itself is probably around 40’. That sounds right for a 14-window coach. 13-window coaches were typically on the order of 35 - 37’ over the carbody.

Later,

K

#39

Pete and Kevin,

I appreciate all your help in making this decision. Glad we had the conversation and I didn’t start the Carter build. Though they would be fun to build but I want as close to a Brill coach as I can get and knowing that the Accucraft coach is the best starting point I with round up two of them.

Pete,

Now you have already done the 14 window conversion for the Brill. What is involved in that process. How does one go about getting new sides and is there anything else special I will need to pick up? I will need to get on these if i want to have them done by September which is my goal.

#40

Doesn’t look much different from your photo. And it looks like the Accucraft - drooping roof ends and all!

And as Kevin says, they don’t change the outside much when they rebuild a coach. (It would be easier to build a whole new one if they did.)