Maynard…I am not an electronics genius, so therefore I know enough to be dangerous. Dave may have, but like the GR article there is a bit of ‘stuff’ necessary for the user to do…not in my wheelhouse.
Methinks Large Scale generally is heading back where it came from.
Primarily supplied and supported by cottage industries.
If a small size maker sticks to making stuff that works in small quantities he/she will survive and prosper.
I have been doing it for 28 years now and I am still around. I am in the fortunate position of being able to sell pretty well everything I make.
No big glossy ads. Mostly word of mouth. I run just one 1/8 page ad in SITG for Live Steamers Worldwide. Plus a 1/4 page ad in an Australian GR magazine.
Yes, technology moves forward all the time. So a good, simple, RC system, should become more affordable as time goes on. Most folks posted that they don’t want touch screens, and 50 function keys. They want positive control over their locomotive, and a few sound keys.
I left out range as one of the good things about the Revolution. Even though a lot of my running is switching where I am very close to the locomotive and range doesn’t matter, I still like to watch it go around my layout. The other two systems could NOT reach my locomotive at the far end; the Revolution does.
I tend to believe in KISS so give me a controller that has the following: Faster, Slower, Stop, Bell, and Whistle and I’m a happy camper. Why complicate life. I retired so my life could be simpler.
Doc Watson
" Rooster " said:
Rick Marty said:
Lots of fun being poked at old technology here and probably rightfully so. But let’s face it those young kids that can use all those modern tools and apps are not the ones buying train control for outdoor railroads nor are they the ones, in 90% of the cases, that use the systems.
Just my opinion.
Rick
Rick you nailed this dead on! I fix upper end import cars for a living which brings me to this story. I will make it short and sweet!
Business lady customer of mine has a beautiful older (manual transmission) Saab convertible. She wanted a 2nd car (nice 4 door sedan) that she could put a few folks in comfortably and take them to lunch or whatever if needed. I told her to go look at some cars that caught her eye and most “importantly” drive them and be “comfortable” with the car and it’s features. She was going to pay cash for the car and price didn’t matter(I’m sure she could have easily written a cashiers check for a Ferrari if she wanted). She looked at Volvo,Lexus,Mercedes,BMW but wasn’t happy with them. She ended up buying a base Toyota Camry. I asked her why the Camry and her answer was as such …“To many features with touch screens,joysticks and crap…the Camry was the only car I knew how to turn on the heat and the radio!”
We see this too much in society …yes it’s great technology but sometimes simplicity over rules. Very few 20 yr olds who can easily work that technology have the money to pay for it.
Ok this is where I need to chime in because this is the mentality of this hobby that pisses me off. As someone who is younger in the hobby let me tell you this. LEARN TO ADAPT!!! Remember it is you who killing the hobby. I see many posts come up saying how do we get younger people into the hobby. Simple its providing them controls and capabilities that will interest them. Smart phones and tablets are what kids are using and if you give them that capability to control the train that way that will interest them. Hell give them a wireless camera capability to watch it as it goes down the tracks that will catch young kids attention even more. This like any hobby will die if there is no innovation to it and if it does not adapt. That being said there are many high tech gadgets that can abide by the “KISS” rule. Apple is a great example. There can be and there are more advanced high tech solutions that are simple to use but they need to be developed more and adopted, and I am not talking DCC it’s an old system that is a pain in the ass.
Joe. I hear where your coming from. I think the ring system is heading in just that direction you are talking about. My two kids are huge into sports. Like others they also spend time on tablets and phones. I observed a demo of the ring the last time I saw Don Sweet. I think the ring would be easy for the existing group of large scalers as well as a future generation of g scalers. I know Don has been urging the ring developers to develop battery rc for this scale. If that were to happen I think a lot of folks from LSC would be happy with it.
Joseph Lupinski said:
" Rooster " said:
Rick Marty said:
Lots of fun being poked at old technology here and probably rightfully so. But let’s face it those young kids that can use all those modern tools and apps are not the ones buying train control for outdoor railroads nor are they the ones, in 90% of the cases, that use the systems.
Just my opinion.
Rick
Rick you nailed this dead on! I fix upper end import cars for a living which brings me to this story. I will make it short and sweet!
Business lady customer of mine has a beautiful older (manual transmission) Saab convertible. She wanted a 2nd car (nice 4 door sedan) that she could put a few folks in comfortably and take them to lunch or whatever if needed. I told her to go look at some cars that caught her eye and most “importantly” drive them and be “comfortable” with the car and it’s features. She was going to pay cash for the car and price didn’t matter(I’m sure she could have easily written a cashiers check for a Ferrari if she wanted). She looked at Volvo,Lexus,Mercedes,BMW but wasn’t happy with them. She ended up buying a base Toyota Camry. I asked her why the Camry and her answer was as such …“To many features with touch screens,joysticks and crap…the Camry was the only car I knew how to turn on the heat and the radio!”
We see this too much in society …yes it’s great technology but sometimes simplicity over rules. Very few 20 yr olds who can easily work that technology have the money to pay for it.
Ok this is where I need to chime in because this is the mentality of this hobby that pisses me off. As someone who is younger in the hobby let me tell you this. LEARN TO ADAPT!!! Remember it is you who killing the hobby. I see many posts come up saying how do we get younger people into the hobby. Simple its providing them controls and capabilities that will interest them. Smart phones and tablets are what kids are using and if you give them that capability to control the train that way that will interest them. Hell give them a wireless camera capability to watch it as it goes down the tracks that will catch young kids attention even more. This like any hobby will die if there is no innovation to it and if it does not adapt. That being said there are many high tech gadgets that can abide by the “KISS” rule. Apple is a great example. There can be and there are more advanced high tech solutions that are simple to use but they need to be developed more and adopted, and I am not talking DCC it’s an old system that is a pain in the ass.
Not True Joe.
I promote the hobby as best as I can. Kids see my layout in the front yard (I don’t hide it) . I have models that are historic model replicas in a museum that grade school classes visit every year numerous times from schools around the area. As for learning to adapt it seems that in my business the younger generation needs to learn to adapt. If the computer cannot tell them what is wrong with the car they are lost. They are forgetting all this new technology is based around an internal combustion engine designed at the turn of the century that needs spark,fuel and air to run.
This brings me to train control. What difference does it make if the controller has a touch screen, fancy keypads or knobs and buttons. They both do the same thing control the train. Honestly I don’t think it would make a difference to a kid whether he/she could control a train with their phone or Ipad. They have to have an interest in trains. No one has ever asked me how I control my trains when they see them running they just like to see them run and sometimes ask about purchasing them. Nor has any kid that ran my trains cared about the Aristo TE as he followed the train around the layout. It’s not the kids buying this stuff and if it’s a newcomer do you think mom and dad would shell out the money for a Revo or something fancy or just a plain jane power pack.
Hey Joe…is it the trains or the electronic gadgets that has your interest. It seems to me that you are more interested it ‘what can my new gadget do’ than how well it controls the trains.
Check out this thread at MRH…
DCC based platform, open source, tactile buttons, LED screen, looks to be one handed operation…
" Rooster " said
Not True Joe.
I promote the hobby as best as I can. Kids see my layout in the front yard (I don’t hide it) . I have models that are historic model replicas in a museum that grade school classes visit every year numerous times from schools around the area. As for learning to adapt it seems that in my business the younger generation needs to learn to adapt. If the computer cannot tell them what is wrong with the car they are lost. They are forgetting all this new technology is based around an internal combustion engine designed at the turn of the century that needs spark,fuel and air to run.
This brings me to train control. What difference does it make if the controller has a touch screen, fancy keypads or knobs and buttons. They both do the same thing control the train. Honestly I don’t think it would make a difference to a kid whether he/she could control a train with their phone or Ipad. They have to have an interest in trains. No one has ever asked me how I control my trains when they see them running they just like to see them run and sometimes ask about purchasing them. Nor has any kid that ran my trains cared about the Aristo TE as he followed the train around the layout. It’s not the kids buying this stuff and if it’s a newcomer do you think mom and dad would shell out the money for a Revo or something fancy or just a plain jane power pack.
That’s great they see it in your yard but that doesn’t mean it is something that want to have fun with or do. If you don’t see how controlling a train with a phone or Ipad would make a different you are just continuing to prove the point of how far things have fallen behind and how people in hobby don’t get want the younger generation is in to. You are right they wont ask you about the controller when its a 80’s remote control with buttons in your hand, because it isn’t interesting at all to them. The train is sure, but after running it one or twice they are done with it if it is not more interactive for them they loose interest. if they are able to control it using the media tools they already have, and even say watch it go down the line on the screen, and hey people come up with fun games or augmented reality stuff as it is moving that is interactive and fun for kids, that gets interest going because they get the feeling they can do something more then watch it go in a circle.
OK, to try to answer the original question:
-
Keep the setup parameters in the loco. This has many benefits, in battery operated systems, it keeps you from having to set up multiple controllers/throttles, and allows the throttles to not have a central command station, which CAN reduce cost.
-
We are a small market, so use DCC decoders with sound already integrated. There is a TON of them out there with all kinds of features that you can use, or ignore. Whatever you want to do, it is available, from simple motor control, to servos, lots of lighting effects, etc.
-
For track power you are done, tons of systems available again, and DCC works great outdoors with the constant voltage on the rails, better than analog DC.
-
For battery power, there is no standard for DCC commands wirelessly. But AirWire does it, and interfaces to standard DCC decoders. The Tam Valley “dead rail” stuff does this too, and perhaps in a less “proprietary” manner, you can use your DCC system with it’s wireless throttles and then just broadcast what would go to the rails to the locos.
The technology to “take” the DCC signals “from” the rails and transmit it to a battery powered loco is SIMPLE. While no standards exist, it’s inexpensive to do it, and as long as the system works with any DCC decoder, (which they should), then you have a fair amount of flexibility.
Basically, there is no fighting the fact you can buy a 2 amp DCC decoder with sound for $70 to $100, and a full blown one for $160. HO and N are driving the market, and the market is DCC, period.
Greg
Bob “IA3R#7” Cope said:
Hey Joe…is it the trains or the electronic gadgets that has your interest. It seems to me that you are more interested it ‘what can my new gadget do’ than how well it controls the trains.
No I in the hobby I am very much about control and not what my new gadget can do because there are not exciting gadgets in this hobby. Exciting new engines and cars sure but controls hardly. Controls can be developed and have been developed that can provide control that is easy and responsive just because someone elses product hasn’t lived up to expectations doesn’t mean you get to discount the concept.
Greg Elmassian said:
OK, to try to answer the original question:
Keep the setup parameters in the loco. This has many benefits, in battery operated systems, it keeps you from having to set up multiple controllers/throttles, and allows the throttles to not have a central command station, which CAN reduce cost.
We are a small market, so use DCC decoders with sound already integrated. There is a TON of them out there with all kinds of features that you can use, or ignore. Whatever you want to do, it is available, from simple motor control, to servos, lots of lighting effects, etc.
For track power you are done, tons of systems available again, and DCC works great outdoors with the constant voltage on the rails, better than analog DC.
For battery power, there is no standard for DCC commands wirelessly. But AirWire does it, and interfaces to standard DCC decoders. The Tam Valley “dead rail” stuff does this too, and perhaps in a less “proprietary” manner, you can use your DCC system with it’s wireless throttles and then just broadcast what would go to the rails to the locos.
The technology to “take” the DCC signals “from” the rails and transmit it to a battery powered loco is SIMPLE. While no standards exist, it’s inexpensive to do it, and as long as the system works with any DCC decoder, (which they should), then you have a fair amount of flexibility.
Basically, there is no fighting the fact you can buy a 2 amp DCC decoder with sound for $70 to $100, and a full blown one for $160. HO and N are driving the market, and the market is DCC, period.
Greg
Interesting, Greg, I didnt know about the Tam Valley dead rail system. Hrm…
Yes, that is VERY interesting. Thanks, Greg. And a link for those so inclined.
I’m not yet convinced (based upon my earlier Airwire experience) that 900 mHz has enough range, but the prices sure seem good.
I have yet to see a transmitter with the same sort of information displayed that the Revolution does, but I have not really been looking, either.
Tam Valley is here in San Diego, a very inventive guy, and good prices.
The dead rail system allows you to use ANY DCC system to control your trains, and then you have a huge variety available to you.
This gives you a couple of things, a variety of controllers and systems to choose, and also, on a traditional DCC system, the “command station” allows important central control, like all stop, and handing off locos to other controllers.
Lots of possibilities.
Greg
I have yet to see a mention of the Dimax Navigator which I use with my LGB Central Station. It is proprietary within Massoth & LGB and pricey. I really don’t use more than 15% of what it can really do, but, it does what I want very well. I think the real future is in Tablet or Phone App control. Imagine a Tablet that would show your layout on screen and the location of each loco, turnout direction, speed in relation to other locos, I’m start’n to tear up, and other crap you don’t even care about… Now, I’m a 69 year old “Techy”, and look forward to the endless possibilities of how technology could bring the younger generation into our hobby. Embrace the future, you don’t have dial any more!
Bruce Chandler said:
Yes, that is VERY interesting. Thanks, Greg. And a link for those so inclined.
I’m not yet convinced (based upon my earlier Airwire experience) that 900 mHz has enough range, but the prices sure seem good.
I have yet to see a transmitter with the same sort of information displayed that the Revolution does, but I have not really been looking, either.
Bruce, I get a solid 100 feet with my Airwire setup. How much do you need?
The range of my Airwire installs varies depending on which transmitter and receiver I’m using and the physical nature of the installation, but in general I can expect anywhere from 20’ to 60’ reliable operation. That’s probably my one gripe about the 900mHz band compared to the 2.4gHz band. I can run my Revo-equipped trains from my front yard. Can’t do that with the Airwire stuff. Granted, like Bruce, I’m mostly doing prototype operations so I’m near the locomotive to control it (or I’ve got the train just running around while I’m doing work, in which case I’m not adjusting the throttle to care if it goes out of range.) Of course, whenever the train derails, (a) I’m 50’ away from the transmitter, and (b) the bloomin’ train is out of range when I am able to grab it to try to stop the loco.
To the original question about the handheld throttle, I have to agree that the Revolution display screen is by far the most informative display of the controllers I’ve used. Airwire’s T-5000 display comes in second. Realistically, it’s got all my “must have” info–loco address, speed, and direction. It also tells me which channel the transmitter is on, how many speed steps it’s set to, and my battery life. These aren’t “needs” in my view, though the frequency is probably pretty close.
I like a knob or slider to control the speed, and if it’s a knob, I want definite start and stop points on that knob. If you have that, you can do away with the graphic display for speed. The knob is its own indicator. If the knob is a digital knob (that can keep going round and round), then you need a graphic display to show what it’s set to.
Also, a “stop NOW!!!” button. Very important to have, especially as more and more manufacturers are adding prototypical braking features to their decoders. (Which, if you haven’t tried yet, you owe it to yourself to do so.) Cool as it is, however, watching your loco careen off the end of a spur into the ditch or pond below because you can’t stop it immediately is perhaps a little too realistic.
Later,
K
Steve Featherkile said:
Bruce Chandler said:
Yes, that is VERY interesting. Thanks, Greg. And a link for those so inclined.
I’m not yet convinced (based upon my earlier Airwire experience) that 900 mHz has enough range, but the prices sure seem good.
I have yet to see a transmitter with the same sort of information displayed that the Revolution does, but I have not really been looking, either.
Bruce, I get a solid 100 feet with my Airwire setup. How much do you need?
When I had my Airwire it would not control the train at the far end of the loop. That’s probably about 60 feet. At that time, the Airwire did not do a good job of controlling my train - it would always run away down hill and slow a LOT up hill. I was constantly adjusting the throttle. I did not care for the implementation of the throttle at all - yes, it was a knob, which I did like, but it had NO stops; it just spun continuously.