Large Scale Central

Water tank freeze in the winter?

General Discussion
#21

My obsession is kicking into full gear. I am finding it very difficult to find out any information on why a tank would be square. Came across a picture which is nothing more than someones drawing but it got me thinking further. Its nothing more than an open top (I assume) round wood tank with a square roof over it.

Now knowing my railroad was cheap and was built in a big rush, I can see a couple more plausible ideas for its design. It would be far easier to build a round open top tank and then put a square or rectangular roof on it. Way easier and faster to build a square roof than a round (octagonal) one. And then by making a rectangular platform and roof and enclosing it, but still having a open top wood tank inside it, then a wood stove would keep the water from freezing.

I am thinking simple construction with the added benefit of being able to heat the tank.

il_fullxfull.4159433021_cj23.avif (80.2 KB)

#22

Well this explains it well enough for me!!!

“To replenish the used water in the tank, delivery pipes extended from the ground into the bottom of the tub and were enclosed in an insulated, wooden “frost box” to prevent freezing. This box contained several layers of wooden walls covered with insulating felt or building paper, and which were separated by 2-inch air spaces. Five such insulating air spaces offered protection down to 30-degrees below zero (Fahrenheit) where the water consumption each 24 hours equaled the capacity of the tub. Put simply, the high amount of energy required to freeze fast-moving water causes it to still freeze at 32-degrees F, but at a slower rate than if the water were not moving. On railroads located in northern climates (particularly the Canadian Pacific), to prevent freezing it was not unusual to enclose the entire water tank and tower in a wooden structure equipped with a heating stove. As the Age of Steam Roundhouse’s 50,000-gallon water tank supplies water for a fire suppression sprinkler system, an electrically-powered immersion heater sits inside the tub to prevent the mostly stationary water from freezing.”

From the Age of Steam Round House Museum.

And from Trains Magazine

I am convinced enough that my little tank is exactly as described in the above articles. I can very much see that this is a wooden structure that has inside a round tank with a stove to keep it from freezing. There is certainly enough evidence to make an argument for anyone visiting my railroad and questions me on it. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

#23

that tank is standing at one of the last stations of our national railroad, turned “museum”.
as far as i remember they maintained partial service till about 1980.
i dont believe, what i saw there was just an outer wall, but the tank itself. see the pic of a “mobile” tank at the same station.

DSC00221

#24

Also the UK had a lot of rectangular water tanks.

And here’s an interesting one, described as a “Braithwaite” water tank. A quick google says that Braithwaite manufactured pressed steel water tanks.

#25

Thanks guys. Those are cool and given what we “know” to be correct here in the USA, it is nice to see something unique and different. Steel I can see it. Either welded or riveted, the strength of steel can easily over come the pressures of a water tank. Still not sure the “logic” behind it, as a cylinder is still stronger. However, if you can do it, want to do it, and there is no glaring reason not to do it, then do it. One thing about a cube versus a cylinder is there would be more volume for a given piece of real estate. If you can put water in the corners that are absent in a round tank then there is just that much more volume over the shadow on the ground. If space were at all a concern I could easily see it. But in all of these cases that wasn’t the case, but they did it anyway.

Now that we know it was done I wold kinda like to know why given it is a big break form traditional tank construction logic.

I really like the top photo you posted Peter. That is just a neat tank. not only the shape but pretty ornate. Looks like it was built on a porch roof or something.

#26

you are thinking too modern. in former times (and even more so in less advanced countries) the ability to bend steel was not commonplace,

#27

Hence round wooden stave water tanks. I never said anything about round steel tanks which are the modern norm. Prior to welded (or even riveted) curved steel, most tanks were round wood stave. I am not sure a square tank of any construction has ever been normal. And to clarify I am not talking small 1000 gallon square tanks. I am talking 10s of thousands of gallons if not 100s of thousands of gallon tanks. While you guys have proven anomalies exist, cylindrical construction has always been the norm. The materiel’s have changed for sure. But the shape is pretty consistent for a long long time. I will also clarify I am referring to elevated tank structures. Cisterns with acres of land to constrain them certainly were made in many different shapes with rectangle or square being normal.

Even most hand dug wells were dug cylindrical for what I assume is the same reason. It is simple a stronger shape with evenly dispersed pressure. In the case of a well it wasn’t explosive pressure but implosive pressure.

Fun discussion none the less. And as you and Peter have obviously shown there are exceptions to everything.

#28

ok, i’ll play the devil’s lawyer.
round woodstaves needed the experience of a cooper for the angled sides, or groove and tongue tecnic.
if i remember right, in this forum years ago we had pics of original rectangular wooden tanks on railway cars (that were firefighting cars, i think)
futher, save in the desert, one finds wood for beams everywhere, steel for belts not so often.

wrong.
i have seen round wells, with stone sidings, but just as often square wells with wooden sidings.
as i can’t find a pic from an original, here a pic from a model

brunnen01
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#29

Again there are certainly exceptions.I am not nor will I ever say it didn’t happen or even happen frequently. I am saying it was not the norm or standard. Neither in tank or well construction. So for me to be wrong you are going to have to say “most wells are square”, are you going to make that claim?

As for deserts and tanks. Again obviously there are condition like lack of materiel that will cause an exception. But show me were even in arid regions rectangular steel tanks were more common than round wood stave ones. Yes you needed expertise and you needed materiel. And both were shipped in as a regular practice. After all are big steel panels laying around in deserts or were they shipped in and erected by people skilled in welding or riveting?

Until you can show me where the normal standard of construction for an elevated tank is anything other than round and most likely, before the ease of availability curved steel panels, was wood stave construction, I stand by my pure speculative guess that the vast majority of elevated tanks were round wood stave construction until curved steel became a readily available thing.

#30

And just to add need to the tank, remember that in the day there would have been a section managers? house somewhere in the vicinity of a heated tank to tend the fire, deice any switches, and provide service if there was a gated crossing. Also to save you speculation here is a drawing of EBT’s enclosed tank from
# Plans of Enclosed Water Tower, East Broad Top Railroad – Free Model Railroad Plans

1 Like
#31

Absolutely Dave. Section houses are another thing of interest for me. The Milwaukee had several “section houses” on the Roland Pass near Avery, Idaho. Its fun to call them that because each had a name on the map that almost makes it sound as if they were settlements. As I learned more about RR history in general and this section specifically, many of the section houses were the size of an out house and were more or less a place to eat, sleep, and get out of the weather. Many time occupied in shifts and with permanent residence being at a real town or such.

At Roland summit there was/is a mile long tunnel that had doors that were opened and closed in the winter. There was a section house on either side. On the Montana side there was an actual RR settlement with bunk houses and a chow hall etc. On the Idaho side at “Roland” from what I can gather it was nothing more than a shack. But they were tasked with opening the doors and shutting them for passing trains. My understanding is this kept the large amount of running water found in the tunnel from freezing when the wind would rush through the tunnel.

That set of tank plans is great. Certainly illustrates what Dave said that its a building holding a round tank. That could be a fun model. But since it doesn’t look anything like my little tank I’ll pass. but thanks for sharing I do want to read the associated article.

#32

WW&F_water_tank
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And of course the well known WW&F water tank at Alna, Maine.

#33

IMG_8017

rectangular tank and trough

These would have been spectacular to see in action.

1 Like
#34

It is neat to see all these square tank/tank structures regardless of whether they have a round tank inside or not. Whatever the reason they are a thing for sure. But now I really really want to see the base of my little tank. I envisioned it still being up on some sort of posts. But almost all of these little ones back east are built in more or less ground up buildings.

The guy who dreamed this railroad up (actually he stole the dream from another and used political influence to get him shut down in Congress so he could float the exact same proposal) was from the North East somewhere and there, I believe, is some EBT influence in his design philosophy. So I could see where he would have pulled from them or other N.E. railroads to put his dream into motion. So now I am really thinking after seeing all these that it might very well had a structure all the way to the ground.

If someone would only write a book on the subject so I can read it. . . :thinking:

#35

Just briefly read the first couple paragraphs and looked at the pictures and never heard of such a think but pretty cool. it would have been fun to watch.

#36

i rest my case. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 done!

#37

Sorta what has been discussed, here is a plan for the Sumpter Valley’s tank at Whitney near Baker Oregon. It gets a ;little cold there also.

IMG_0669
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This is very similar to a tank that Dick Smith built for the Port Orford Coast and I refurbished and added to the South Fork Mill yards.

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#38

Devon , can’t help you much as it is a photo I found on google. But this guy made a similar one.
https://thrumlington.blogspot.com/2014/04/gwr-water-tanks-footbridge.html

Many UK water tanks come on a square masonry base, and a few have been converted to homes! Including one you can rent:

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g186344-d6749532-Reviews-Settle_Station_Water_Tower-Settle_Yorkshire_Dales_National_Park_North_Yorkshire_E.html

Another one here:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/converted-british-water-towers-take-luxury-living-to-new-heights-11640879600](https://www.wsj.com/articles/converted-british-water-towers-take-luxury-living-to-new-heights-11640879600)

Your wish is our every command.

#39

Looks like they were very effective getting the salt off the undercarriage too. :sunglasses:

#40

The Settle Water Tower was one of my favorite Restoration Man episodes. Available on YouTube, for those who feel like an England fix.

Cheers
N