Large Scale Central

They're after our firearms, again

David Hill said:
P.S. Tanks can be captured and turned to point the other way. I was a qualified tank driver and could still run a citizen owned tank or an Abrams. I do not foresee US troops firing on US citizens.
Ok--then who are you resisting if not the government? If the Army would be on your side, then you don't need the guns.

Can you show me exactly which rights have been stripped away in the last 3 years? Not surrpisingly, I’m a supprter of the ACLU, which I regard as the strongest supporter of our constitutional rights that we have. I have a clear sense of where our rights have been chipped away. Which rights do you think were erodes in the last 3 years, under the Bush administration?

mike omalley said:
David Hill said:
P.S. Tanks can be captured and turned to point the other way. I was a qualified tank driver and could still run a citizen owned tank or an Abrams. I do not foresee US troops firing on US citizens.
Ok--then who are you resisting if not the government? If the Army would be on your side, then you don't need the guns.

Can you show me exactly which rights have been stripped away in the last 3 years? Not surrpisingly, I’m a supprter of the ACLU, which I regard as the strongest supporter of our constitutional rights that we have. I have a clear sense of where our rights have been chipped away. Which rights do you think were erodes in the last 3 years, under the Bush administration?


As a supporter of the ACLU, does the ACLU support ALL the US Constitutional Rights or only some?

Isn’t the USA a member of the UN? Doesn’t the UN assume the authority to inject military force? Are all the UN voting members our friends? And, doesn’t the UN want to disarm ALL of the nations’ citizens?

“The USA PATRIOT Act permits arrests without warrants and secret detention without counsel, wiretaps without court supervision, searches and seizures without notification to the individual whose property is invaded, and a host of other violations of the legal safeguards our nation has historically developed according to principles descending from the Fourth and Fifth Amendments.”*

The loss of our First Amendment Rights under the Campaign Reform Act, and all “Executive Orders” which are unconstitutional under Article I Section 1 of the united States Constitution.

Mike,

You asked - “Can you show me exactly which rights have been stripped away in the last 3 years?”

I think the ramp up of attacks against a person’s religion is a terrible loss of rights. I think the ACLU has a history of promoting this as they impose their “Religion of Law” on all of us. The attack on Christianity would not be tolerated, if it was focused against Muslims. I really thought only lawyers supported the ACLU, this is dissapointing to hear that you support that organization. It is troubling to think that the ACLU theories would be supported in a classroom.

The increased financial burden being imposed and now enforced by the Democratic controlled Government will strip our children of rights and freedom in the future. I’m sure we will disagree, but I blame a lot of this, however not all of it, on the Legislature since 2006.

As the economy continues down , this posting subject may get really different views as crime sky rockets , give it a year or so , and we may see a change of views . But I really hope it doesn’t get as bad as possible .

The ACLU is frequently the champion of religious liberty–see for example, this case in which they won a big victory for Jerry Falwell

http://www.aclu.org/religion/frb/16040prs20020417.html

As a religious skeptic, I find the ACLU crucial to defending my freedom–the right to not have compulsory Christianity forced on me. It’s the religious cases that make people hate the ACLU, until, like Falwell, they find it on their side

but forget about that–the ACLU has been in the forefront in attacking the Patriot Act, which I agree grossly infringed on our Constitutional rights:

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/resources/17343res20031114.html

Ric, seriously, where is the attack on Christianity? There are churches everywhere, and they appear to be thriving. TV is full of religious broadcasting. The vast, vast majority of our elected officials are practicing christians; we constantly hear “god bless America” at the end of nearly every political speech. If there is a war on Christianity, christianity is clearly winning! Seriously, other than a vague feeling, and Bill O’Reilly’s “War on Christmas” nonsense, what kind of evidence do you have that there is a war on religion?

The ACLU has no objection to religion, it simply objects to the compulsory observance of specific religious beliefs, which it rightly sees, in my opinion, as an infringement of freedom of speech, thought and belief. As a non believer, I frequently find myself in situations where I’m being compelled to join in prayer, or I’m being asked to give my assent to policies claimed to be rooted in the will of god. Surely the exercise of individual freedom means not having to be coerced into religious beliefs you don’t share?

mike, does the united States Constitution build a wall of separation between church and state?

What is meant in Article I of the Bill of Rights that reads: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” ?

Mike,

Tough question to answer in an open forum, where I would offend people that I have no interest in openly assaulting. The fact the I have become “politically correct” enough to honor that thought, makes me hope my heritage won’t disown me and is personally disappointing.

So with that disclaimer, I am a pro-life, anti-abortion, Christian. I side closer with Bill O’Reilly’s feelings than I do BHO’s or Pelosi’s. If a person is offended by hearing “God Bless America” I am unapologetic. I give thanks to my Lord Jesus Christ every morning and night and silently pray most of my days. If that offends somebody, tough, suck it up, you can handle it. I takes oaths and vowes extremely seriously, I feel many people don’t. If someone wants to think I am uneducated or old fashion for that, that is more their problem than mine. I believe marriage is between one man and one woman, I do not like the idea of queers exploiting that. I am offended that people get upset with the Holidays I celebrate and I am offended by a bunch of parasitic, lazy people that want to create a holiday so they can be off work from Christmas to New Year. If lawyers and the legal profession and others are offended by Christmas or Sundays, go to work nobody is stopping you. I am offended by our troops having to calculate if they are doing wrong when double tapping an enemy while advancing. I believe we live in a World of Evil and there are terrorists. I feel Texas, Hawaii and Key West are independent countries that have sided with the USA for self preservation, but have the right to leave at any time. No class that I had or have to take for a credit nor any debate will change these feelings. I live in the community I have chosen to live in because most of the people around here feel the same as me. You all are welcome to come and debate any points.

You sound like an American to me Ric. Proud to meet your acquaintance.

Ric:

I’m not offended by your religious beliefs, or your choice of holidays, and even if I were, so what? The point of free speech was never to allow only inoffensive speech. I actually don’t care at all about your religious beliefs: they are none of my business and you’re entitled to believe as you wish. I never said otherwise and never would. I’m not offended by your religious beliefs, not even slightly, but at the same time, I have a right not to be compelled to agree or assent. I could just as easily reply: “If you are offended by my lack of religious beliefs, suck it up, and get over it. it’s a free country. I don’t have to worship your god.”

You and I both take oaths seriously. How can I take an oath seriously if it asked me to acknowledge religious beliefs I don’t share? Freedom means the right to dissent–you dissent from what you see as suffocating liberal orthodoxy, I dissent from what i see as suffocating christian orthodoxy, being forced on me all the time.

I look around and who is trying to kill me? religious people (muslims). Who is implying that you are a “real American” and I’m not, because you’re a christian. Why, our good christian David Hill. In his eyes, I’m not a “real American” because I don’t share his beliefs.

David, if you want to make that comment to my face, you’d better do it well armed

Mike,

You said - "“If you are offended by my lack of religious beliefs, suck it up, and get over it. it’s a free country. I don’t have to worship your god.”

I have and do live with it daily…

I was raised and continue to believe this Country was founded on Judaic Christan beliefs. I know, this is a big debate. The rewriting or interpretation of history to try to dilute this feeling is unacceptable to me. It is offensive when people try and especially offensive when it is taught in schools my tax dollars pay for.

However, because of groups like the ACLU and the “Religion of Law” our own documents have been subject to debate and I truly believe there is an ongoing process to destroy this Country from within by non-Christian educators and lawyers.

At this point, it is best we go back to talking about trains and modeling. All you all have any type of day you want.

mike omalley said:
Ric:

I’m not offended by your religious beliefs, or your choice of holidays, and even if I were, so what? The point of free speech was never to allow only inoffensive speech. I actually don’t care at all about your religious beliefs: they are none of my business and you’re entitled to believe as you wish. I never said otherwise and never would. I’m not offended by your religious beliefs, not even slightly, but at the same time, I have a right not to be compelled to agree or assent. I could just as easily reply: “If you are offended by my lack of religious beliefs, suck it up, and get over it. it’s a free country. I don’t have to worship your god.”

You and I both take oaths seriously. How can I take an oath seriously if it asked me to acknowledge religious beliefs I don’t share? Freedom means the right to dissent–you dissent from what you see as suffocating liberal orthodoxy, I dissent from what i see as suffocating christian orthodoxy, being forced on me all the time.

I look around and who is trying to kill me? religious people (muslims). Who is implying that you are a “real American” and I’m not, because you’re a christian. Why, our good christian David Hill. In his eyes, I’m not a “real American” because I don’t share his beliefs.

David, if you want to make that comment to my face, you’d better do it well armed


Scratch a lib and you will find a pirate, who is willing to raise the Jolly Roger at the slightest insult.

Quote:
... It is offensive when people try and especially offensive when it is taught in schools my tax dollars pay for.
The flip side to that argument occurs when you have this religious group or the other forcing public schools to teach "their views" to all students. (i.e., abstinence with no mention of contraception, creationism as scientific fact, etc.) Those are perfectly valid religious beliefs, but they are just that--beliefs. To force their instruction as absolute to the exclusion of others is equally wrong-headed. Because they are valid beliefs, they are fair game for instruction and discussion in the classroom, but that instruction includes a debate of the plausibility of those theories such as what we've had here. The "it's my way or the highway" mentality has no place in today's learning institutions.

I have no problem with governments setting up Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanzaa, or any kind of religious or cultural display. Government is representative of all people, and is by that nature allowed to reflect the beliefs of those people. The key here is that it is a reflection, not an imposition. When my local city council puts up a menorah, they’re not telling me I have to be jewish. They’re celebrating the beliefs of those in the community who happen to be. The most common criticism from those who disagree with such displays falls along the line of “I don’t want my tax dollars going to that.” When we pay our taxes, we don’t get to decide where our particular contribution goes. Parts of each and every one of the tax dollars we contribute to the giant pot go to some program that we don’t personally believe in. That’s balanced against the programs that we do believe in that others don’t. That’s life. We deal with it, or we don’t pay our taxes, go to prison, then wish people would spend more money on prisons.

I’m not a fan of “revisionist history,” but one has to look at the rationale behind the revision. To rewrite history to support a popular political position is clearly damaging, and should be avoided or countered with opposing views. However, to rewrite history based on new facts and understanding coming to light is not only acceptable, but to ignore such facts would be an even greater wrong. When the constitution was written, only men could vote. That was undeniably the intent of our founding fathers. (Heck, it was probably a reflection of the fact that the wife really ruled the household, and government was the male’s one outlet for actually making decisions on his own. :wink: ) The reality changed over the years, though, and the Constitution rewritten to reflect those changes. I think views on religion relative to the Constitution are undergoing a similar revision. There’s no denying the Christian foundation of our country. When the framers wrote about religious freedom, they weren’t worried so much about protecting the rights of agnostics as they were making sure the church itself couldn’t rise to a theocracy. But as times and our population has changed, we now have to include a far broader range of religious–and secular–beliefs. The intent is still the same–to keep the country from becoming a theocracy. That doesn’t necessarily remove the religious foundation from the Constitution. Government is still allowed to reference and pay homage to religion. But it cannot establish policy based solely on one particular set of beliefs.

Later,

K

Thank you Kevin, that some up my beliefs with much less heat.

There’s no denying the US was founded as part of a Judeo Christian tradition. There’s also no doubt there were other strains of thought including enlightenment rationality and skepticism. We live in a complicated country. I’m inclined to agree wth Jefferso on this:

“The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

Kevin,

You said - "The “it’s my way or the highway” mentality has no place in today’s learning institutions. "

But isn’t that the attitude of the teachers and professors so the student can get an acceptable grade and move on with life? I’m sure the argument is that today’s educators are open to debate and oppossing thoughts if it can be supported. I have to feel that is just more Pelosi. The classes that force the indoctrination are usually madated to graduate and most students just want it checked off so they can move on.

Kevin, I think your last paragraph goes with the belief of the Consitution being a “living document” which is supported by the “Religion of Law” and its followers. I don’t feel that is supported by the populous, but I think the indoctrination of our youth is sliding the support that way.

Ric this is a favorite theme of yours–that education is an empty experience of ticket punching, in which you pretend to agree with the raving liberal teacher in order to be done as quickly as possible. Of course there are many students who just go through the motions, like anywhere else in life. But to pass my class you have to argue well–I really could not care less what you argue, so long as you argue it well. And by that I mean formulate an argument, and support it with examples drawn from history. Write it coherently at least, with verve and force at best. If they get out of my class and all they have learned is how to construct an effective argument, using evidence, then I’m happy. It does not matter to me if they agree with me or not. The reason i waste time arguing politics here is probably because i never do it in class.

What in does Pelosi have to do with anything in a classroom?

Quote:
... But isn't that the attitude of the teachers and professors so the student can get an acceptable grade and move on with life? I'm sure the argument is that today's educators are open to debate and oppossing thoughts if it can be supported. I have to feel that is just more Pelosi. The classes that force the indoctrination are usually madated to graduate and most students just want it checked off so they can move on.
I have yet to see wholesale evidence to support this. Yes, there are individual teachers who do lean one way or the other, and every now and then they do get called on the carpet for their biases. Most of my teachers encouraged debate, but mandated that such debate be based on fact and historical example, not innuendo, generalization, and "well, that's what (insert political party here) always does" type arguments. That's where most political arguments fall short, on both sides of the aisle. They don't look at the facts of the situation, rather they color them in generalizations.

As for graduation requirements, I don’t know about your high school or college, but I had a ton of math, science, engineering, language (english and foreign), phys-ed, and other classes that were required in addition to history. In fact, history and civics were a surprisingly small part of my required transcript. Yes, history and civics are a bit more prone to political bias than the other pursuits. However, the “bias” argument disallows one fundamental truth–students want an “A” and will write anything, whether they believe it or not, to get it.

Quite frankly, I don’t want to be taught by someone who shares my beliefs lock, stock, and barrel. I take classes to learn and to be challenged. If the (insert persuasion here) can’t handle listening to the ideas of (other persuasion here), then are they actually learning? If I can’t justify my beliefs in the face of an opposing viewpoint, how valid are my beliefs? Having someone blindly reaffirm what I believe doesn’t make me a better person, it just makes me blind in a blindman’s company. (That’s largely why I enjoy the debates here. It forces me to examine and defend, and clarify my beliefs.)

Quote:
... Kevin, I think your last paragraph goes with the belief of the Consitution being a "living document" which is supported by the "Religion of Law" and its followers. I don't feel that is supported by the populous, but I think the indoctrination of our youth is sliding the support that way.
The Constitution is by its very nature a living document. At its most basic level, it's words on a piece of paper. Those words have meaning based solely on what the judiciary says they mean. As the judiciary changes, so may the interpretation. That's why we now have 9 justices on the court. The Constitution is both very specific and very vague at the same time, so there are many opportunities for interpretation. Court decisions are rarely unanimous, so clearly there are differences in interpretation amongst the justices. The Constitution has been amended 27 times in its 220 year history, the most recent being in 1992. Some of these amendments merely clarify language, while others define it. It cannot be an absolute document for no other reason than our founding fathers could not have known--and had no intention of pretending to know--what the future would bring. They built a framework. Subsequent generations put up the walls, built additions, and occasionally have given a few rooms new paint.

Later,

K

Speaking of encouraging debate, I had a debate class when I was in college. I was given a topic that the debate would cover. It wasn’t until I showed up in class the next day that I knew what side I’d have to support.

You don’t really understand an issue until you can argue the other side.

Later,

K

Steve Featherkile said:
mike omalley said:
David, if you want to make that comment to my face, you'd better do it well armed
Scratch a lib and you will find a pirate, who is willing to raise the Jolly Roger at the slightest insult.
I really do not understand where all this animosity is coming from, only that liberals likely now have a feeling of entitlement and feel threatened with truth. If I tell the truth and a liberal or conservative does not like the facts, it is not I that has the problem.

Mike, once again you are attributing to me something I never said. It may be your version of the truth, but I never once ever said you were any less patriotic that anyone else.

P.S. FYI, I am ALWAYS heavily armed, but have learned to keep my temper under control as I feel that I carry a great responsibility with my Springfield 1911 on my hip.

I don’t mind people who disagree–I enjoy a debate. I’m sick and tired of people who claim the mantle of "real American’ for themselves, and dismiss the rest of us. Does that explan where the animosity comes from?

Now which “truths” do you think liberals feel threatened by?

You’re the one who feels the need to be heavily armed, I guess because liberals are scary? I can only conclude that it’s because you really believe people you disagree with are dangerous, they aren’t “real americans,” they’re menacing and scary. I think it must be a tough way to live, feeling under siege all the time.

I would never claim that I represent the “real america” and you don’t, because it seems to me that America is too complex to be reduced to one set of beliefs, and that’s it’s strength.

Uh, Mike, you are the one who suggested that David come well armed, if he wanted to discuss something with you…