Large Scale Central

The ACORN menace

General Discussion
#21

I LOVE the canard (literally “duck”…what a cool word) that voter fraud is overblown because “all the people who voted were registered”… Totally ignoring the FACT that some of the registered people in question who VOTED a. Have been dead for years (I guess they don’t just come to life when the office closes for the day?) b. Have moved away (but still live there and vote?) c. Don’t KNOW they registered or voted. (!) or d. Only EXIST in the voter registration record. If that AIN’T fraud…what is it?

The voter registration office should have caught all those? Maybe, If you give them enough money manpower and time and don’t interfere… But then it’s in VOGUE to blame society for your own actions in EVERY criminal act, ain’t it?

#22

Mik, I tried to explain this before–there is definitely bogus voter REGISTRATION going on. But that does not necessarily translate into vote FRAUD, because it’s very difficult to vote under a bogus registration. If you can show me the facts of dead people voting I’d appreciate it. Do you have a link? I looked in the historical journals and could find very little instance of provable vote fraud, though there are thousands and thousands of instances of charges of fraud. It’s very hard to register as someone fictitious and then show up to vote.

There are 100s of stories about dead people voting, and it may indeed be true. I have not seen hard proof of it. People usually don’t take their names of the voter rolls after they day, it’s up to the local election commission. But to vote using dead people in large numbers would be very hard. You would need to find the dead person’s address and match it to their name and then hire someone to show up as that specific dead person, with ID. It’s not easy. I’m not saying it never happens, but I am suggestng that it never happens on the scale that the McCain campaign is suggestng

As I said before, ACORN, like other organizations, pays workers to go out and collect registrations. It gives them a quote they have to meet in order to get paid. Some of these workers submit fake registrations. ACORN is then required to report them if it finds them.

But that doesn’t translate into vote fraud. You can register Mickey Mouse to vote, but Mickey cannot actually show up and vote.

I’m opposed to registration fraud and to vote fraud. I just think the hype over it at the moment is absurd and overblown. It’s an attempt by people who think they are going to lose to de–legitimize the election

#23

Edmund Burke was right when he said “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

Sadly, people WILL continue to do nothing, except complain when things don’t go their way.

You ask for “positive proof” It will be long in coming as long as the elections board is in the pocket of the politicians that put them there. It’s not just the VOLUME of the allegations, it’s the fact that they come from all over.

My adopted son Eli’s birth uncle bragged to Eli that last election he made “a lot of money” being driven, along with a minivan full of other guys, to polling places in Philadelphia and New Jersey, to vote. I gathered the people driving the van also supplied them with documentation… Just more hearsay? Do you REALLY think he’s gonna give me a signed affidavit admitting he broke the law???

We aren’t talking about a few guys trying to pull a fast one, we are talking about a long established systematic organized perversion of our system by people who only care about keeping themselves and their buddies in the hog trough. Counterfeit IDs aren’t hard to make, or very hard to come by in North Philly, or anywhere else there is a demand for them. so maybe something obvious like Mickey would get questioned a little bit, but then wasn’t there a would be pollie a few years back who’s REAL name WAS Donald Duck?

The one thing I have to question though, is why SO MANY of the people historically accused of being involved in this activity, AND gerrymandering, are Dems? Got a slick answer to that? If you’re just gonna say it’s all a Rep smear, try peddling it elsewhere, I ain’t buying

#24
Mik said:
Sadly, people WILL continue to do nothing, except complain when things don't go their way.
Interesting quote--which party is doing the complaining about vote fraud?
Mik said:
My adopted son Eli's birth uncle bragged to Eli that last election he made "a lot of money" being driven, along with a minivan full of other guys, to polling places in Philadelphia and New Jersey, to vote. I gathered the people driving the van also supplied them with documentation.... Just more hearsay? Do you REALLY think he's gonna give me a signed affidavit admitting he broke the law????????
Were those illegal fake voters, or registered voters? There is nothing wrong with driving registered voters to the polling place to vote--it's not illegal, or unethical. If the van was full of legal voters, it's absolutely and 100% legal and reasonable. If he was PAID to vote, even once, it's a crime

As I said, if that van was full of phony voters, it would be very difficult for them to actually vote. You could give each of them fake ids, but the fraud would be discovered when it came time to strike their names off the list of duly registered voters. If they were given fake Id’s in the names and addresses of actual people, the fraud would STILL be discovered, because either

A: the name of the real voter would have already been crossed off
B: the real voter would show up later, find his name had been struck off, and the fraud would be revealed

It sounds to me like your adopted son’s birth uncle was involved in a get out the vote effort, in which legally registered voters are driven to the polling place. Call him and ask hm to explain how they managed to give him "documentation so he could vote in multiple districts, would you please. Because right now, I’m thinking the guy is a liar

#25

Mike, re-read what I said…they weren’t being helpfully driven to the polling place and voting ONCE. He told my son, BOASTED to in fact, that he was paid well to vote several times in several locations (And WAS in fact trying to recruit Eli to came along this time). Fake registrations PLUS hired “voters” with supplied fake IDs… If that AIN’T fraud, then what the hell is it? Fried chicken and biscuits?

I can see your mind is made up, so I won’t bother to try to confuse you with facts (even anecdotal evidence ones)

#26

Mik, My mind is not made up, I’m asking him, or you, to explain how they did it-.

Lets say he voted six times, in six different polling districts in two states. Here’s how I think you could do it

So the person in charge of the fraud had to identify six dead people who were registered to vote, one for each polling district. Then he had to find their addresses, and he had to be right about it–the addresses would have to match the addresses given when the dead people registered. Then he had to make six fake ids. And he had to do it for each person in the van–let’s say 6 people. So he had to make 36 phony identities

And while he was doing that he would have to make sure none of the dead persons had been struck from the voter roles. I don’t know how often those lists are updated

It’s doable, I suppose. But it seems like it would be very hard, and so not worth getting hysterical about. That was my original point–I don’t doubt that some voter fraud goes on, but it’s pretty hard to do, ad there is very little hard prof that it happened. If your son’s Uncle is going around bragging about being paid to vote multiple times, then the story should be getting out. If I were you I’d call the PA election commission and tell them about this. As you say, evil flourishes when good men do nothing. So if you have proof about voter fraud, why are you wasting time complaining about it on a train forum?

#27

Mike, the difference is between KNOWING and having documentable PROOF. If you’re going to do 36, then why not 3600…even if SOME get caught, most will slip through, and if the people driving the vans and casting the votes don’t know or care who is pulling the strings, then it’s pretty safe for the puppeteers as well. From what I gathered it was 10-12 guys per van, times who knows how many vans, and as many stops as they could hope to complete from the time the polls opened until they closed. This would imply a rather large very organized operation. ALSO, if these people are smart enough to do this, it isn’t going to be done indescriminantly, they’re going to know in advance (especially if they are working WITH the “community organizers” and local pollies) where things are going to probably be close enough for a couple dozen or a hundred votes to tip the scales the way they wish them to tip.

Modern North Philly is a very hardscrabble, often violent place. Have you ever BEEN there? Not passing through with your windows rolled up and doors locked, but actually BEEN there? It’s so far removed from the Philadelphia of the founding fathers, or the smug self-satisfied middle class world you live in, it MIGHT AS WELL BE another planet. Strangers at dusk are as likely to give you a shiv in the ribs as a wave hello. Add to this that Eli’s family is second and third generation Puerto Rican. To them FAMILY is pretty much all they are certain they can depend on. So if they have to do something that’s a bit…grey to feed the family, or get Abuela a new television, then that’s what they will do. Especially when, to their eyes, nobody is really getting hurt. If somebody offers them $200 or $300 to ride around in a van pulling levers, then…

Eli has lived in our world long enough that he questions whether it SHOULD be that way, but NOT enough to break with the family, let alone betray one of them. If I turned this in, the election officials would go to Eli’s uncle and the uncle would say, in rapid fire Spanish “I don’t have any idea what you are talking about”…then the family would look at Eli, BECAUSE he’s the ONLY one who questions the way things are.

You are right, I AM doing nothing. YOU however are actively supporting the evil by denying it’s existence. Which is worse?

I’m done, take your best shot. NEITHER of us is likely to convince the other at this point.

AND you still haven’t answered why those most often accused have historically been Dems…

#28
Mik said:
Mike, the difference is between KNOWING and having documentable PROOF. If you're going to do 36, then why not 3600...even if SOME get caught, most will slip through, and if the people driving the vans and casting the votes don't know or care who is pulling the strings, then it's pretty safe for the puppeteers as well. From what I gathered it was 10-12 guys per van, times who knows how many vans, and as many stops as they could hope to complete from the time the polls opened until they closed. This would imply a rather large very organized operation. ALSO, if these people are smart enough to do this, it isn't going to be done indescriminantly, they're going to know in advance (especially if they are working WITH the "community organizers" and local pollies) where things are going to probably be close enough for a couple dozen or a hundred votes to tip the scales the way they wish them to tip.

Modern North Philly is a very hardscrabble, often violent place. Have you ever BEEN there? Not passing through with your windows rolled up and doors locked, but actually BEEN there? It’s so far removed from the Philadelphia of the founding fathers, or the smug self-satisfied middle class world you live in, it MIGHT AS WELL BE another planet. Strangers at dusk are as likely to give you a shiv in the ribs as a wave hello. Add to this that Eli’s family is second and third generation Puerto Rican. To them FAMILY is pretty much all they are certain they can depend on. So if they have to do something that’s a bit…grey to feed the family, or get Abuela a new television, then that’s what they will do. Especially when, to their eyes, nobody is really getting hurt. If somebody offers them $200 or $300 to ride around in a van pulling levers, then…

Eli has lived in our world long enough that he questions whether it SHOULD be that way, but NOT enough to break with the family, let alone betray one of them. If I turned this in, the election officials would go to Eli’s uncle and the uncle would say, in rapid fire Spanish “I don’t have any idea what you are talking about”…then the family would look at Eli, BECAUSE he’s the ONLY one who questions the way things are.

You are right, I AM doing nothing. YOU however are actively supporting the evil by denying it’s existence. Which is worse?

I’m done, take your best shot. NEITHER of us is likely to convince the other at this point.

AND you still haven’t answered why those most often accused have historically been Dems…


Well Mik, I am a proud graduate of Temple University, 1981. I lived Off-campus IN NORTH PHILLY while I was there, for two years. I lived at 12th and Columbia and the corner of Franklin and Oxford. Road the Broad st. line at all hours of the night. I car pooled in the summers out to Ft. Washington with folks from North Philly, where I worked on a maintenance crew for two years with people from that neighborhood. So don’t lecture me about North Philly.

You keep ignoring my point, which is that it’s hard to do. You are making charges based on heresay, literally, you heard the guy say it–and I’m asking for facts–if you can’t provide them, fine. That the Uncle is Puerto Rican does not matter one bit–that he is poor doesn’t matter one bit to this either. I asked you how they did it. Either you ask him and you find out, or you don’t. You’re the one who claims to have hard evidence of voter fraud, and you’re doing nothing about it, but you’re accusing me of not caring? Huh?

I’ll say it again–I’m not in favor of voter fraud. I just think it’s harder to do than is being claimed. I think the republicans are exaggerating voter fraud because they want to de-legitimize the election.

I do not agree that those who have been most often accused have been Dems. That’s your perception–is it true? I will freely admit that from 1865 till 1964, the Party most likely to be engaged in Vote suppression, that is, finding ways to prevent people from voting, was the Democratic party, because the Democratic Party was the party of white supremacy. That’s an objective fact. Today, the party most likely to be engaged in vote suppression is the Republicans, and the hype about ACORN, in my opinion, is part of that

#29

There have been several instances, including Florida, where the software for the voting machines was tampered with. This was not to benefit Democrats.
In our world today there are much easier, cheaper and effective ways to rig an election than drive some bums around to vote several times.
Ralph

#30

Mik:

Take a look at this article–it’s about ACORN and voter registration. It seems pretty reasonable to me, and you can maybe read it without being mad at me

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_10/015293.php

Here’s a quote from it:

"voter registration fraud is not the same as fraudulently casting a ballot. There are a lot of safeguards in place to prevent people from casting fraudulent ballots, and submitting a fraudulent registration does not begin to mean that you will be able to cast a fraudulent ballot. First, you’d need to submit the fake registrations. Then you’d need to hope that they made it through the election officials’ screening. And then, as Rick Hasen writes in Slate:

"I would have to (...) pay a lot of other individuals to go to the polling place and claim to be Mary Poppins or Old Dead Bob, without any return guarantee --thanks to the secret ballot -- that any of them will cast a vote for my preferred candidate. Those who do show up at the polls run the risk of being detected ("You're not my neighbor Bob who passed away last year!") and charged with a felony. And for what -- $10?"

And besides all that, you’d have to hope that none of the large number of people you hired shoot their mouths off about it later. If you think about it, it’s a pretty labor-intensive and risky way to try to steal an election. Much easier and safer to rig an election machine, stuff a ballot box, or find some subtle way of intimidating the other side’s voters. This may be why there’s very little evidence of actual voter fraud."

here is a statistic from the LEague of Women Voters:

“A 2005 report by the League of Women Voters of Ohio and the Coalition on Homelessness and Housing in Ohio, for example, found that of more than 9 million votes cast in the state’s 2002 and 2004 general elections, there were four instances of ineligible people attempting to vote. The data were collected from interviews with all 88 county Boards of Election.”

The full link for that is here:

http://www.coshoctontribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081014/UPDATES01/81014004

#31

IMO the easiest form of voter fraud is a college student registering and voting on campus then making the drive home to vote at his old polling place. The same with anyone that’s moved.

Same day registration is ripe for voter fraud. (Registration should close long enough to verify the voter before the election.) Vouching for another’s residency is also ripe for fraud.

#32
mike omalley said:
Well Mik, I am a proud graduate of Temple University, 1981. I lived Off-campus IN NORTH PHILLY while I was there, for two years. I lived at 12th and Columbia and the corner of Franklin and Oxford. Road the Broad st. line at all hours of the night. I car pooled in the summers out to Ft. Washington with folks from North Philly, where I worked on a maintenance crew for two years with people from that neighborhood. So don't lecture me about North Philly.
A LOT can change in 27 years. Around TEMPLE it's not so bad, yet. But in other spots.... You can tell Eli's cousin how safe it its... no wait, you can't. See, he died after he was jumped in broad daylight by 6 guys beaten with bats and and shot 9 times simply for talking to a girl. -- They never caught the guys.....

Or you can tell his brother George who still carries a bullet that they can’t remove after HE was shot during a bar fight because some puke mistook him for someone else… the second shot missed Eli’s littlest brother’s head by an inch…

Or maybe you should tell his birth mom how nice it is. She might remember it later, but then she’s schizophrenic. Something to do with getting hit over the head with an iron skillet for interrupting the guys who were robbing her house…

Or you can talk to Eli and his little brother George who lived on the streets from the time they were 12 until they were 14, and ask them about what they had to do to survive.

Yep it’s a garden spot alright. Especially since the drug gangs moved in.

#33

What a sad sad World we live in.