So if one wants to have charging happen at 80% of discharge, does that mean one should buy a battery that is 180% of expected run time?
Example: I want to run 3 hours no stop. Do I need/want to buy a battery that is 3 m.amp hours x 180 to determine the size of my battery?
I’m trying to understand the charging at 80%. Back a few years ago when TOC was around he recommended I set up a charger I currently have to 80% for the charging of my NiMh…is this the same as you are talking about?
I also did some investigation on Amazon and found this particular charger that will do multiple chemistry’s.
Would this be sufficient to charge the 6700 mAh batteries??
Richard
Michael Glavin said:
GAP,
Thanks for sharing your set-up.
I note your working with a hybrid Li-Po in hard plastic case, i.e. Turnigy Graphene battery. I have several hard case 5000mAh Li-Po’s I use with trains, planes and cars, great choice IMO. That said the aforementioned battery is a world apart from our 18650 Li-Ion batteries. Of note is the ability monitor/control each cell individually typical of “Balance Charging”.
The charge rate your employing is WELL below industry “standards” for Li-Po’s @ 0.1C or 0.5A for said 5000mA battery. What drives you to slow charge your battery?
Michael
Hard case is from talking to offroad racers and plane users so a bit more robust in case of a crash (crashworthy?).
The charge rate is roughly what the aircraft battery guys charge theirs at, so I figure if its good enough for the USN then its good enough for me.
So far, over the past 10 years I have had no issues, this may not be the correct way but I am working on “if the ain’t broke don’t fix it”.
After I run my trains then they go into the “Service Centre” for turn around servicing or deeper maintenance if required, Turn around involves Li battery top up, Deeper Maintenance involves NiMH charging but I do not top up them after each excursion but let them run down a bit. I monitor their performance and charge accordingly.
On another note; I am watching with interest any news of the new Li Sulphur technology batteries that are on the horizon to see how they perform.
Scientists claim commercial production is possible within the next 2 to 4 years, a few teething problems but which new technology does not have them…
Evidently using Sulphur instead of heavy metals, cobalt etc that are becoming harder to get, is more economical due to its ease of obtaining.
Please turn your heads now as this may be another “frivolous post”.
Late last year, I read Michael Glavin’s statement on another thread: “These 1.5A charge rates I’m noting are NOT correct for larger batteries and or cells in series-parallel battery configuration, such as 5400/6800mAh batteries. The manufacturer recommended charge rate for ONE cell is 1.625 for the 3400mAh Sanyo/Panasonics @ maximum time interval of 4 hours. The Tenergy TLP3000 as mentioned above is adequate for a 4-cell battery only." I then contacted the following reputable dealers, manufacturer, installer, and another very knowledgable gentleman on this board (who will remain nameless). These people have all been in business for a long time, and I asked them the same question regarding compatibility between my battery packs and my charger.
RLD Hobbies – Robbie Dascotte, owner
Me: I have a Tenergy 1.5 Amp Universal Smart Charger. It charges 14.8V Li-ion battery packs. Will that work OK charging your 14.8V HJE Li-ion batteries? Are the HJE batteries as good of quality as the CVP-recommended (Sanyo/Panasonic/LG) battery packs?
Robbie: Your charger will be fine. I sell a lot of them. My HJE batteries are the exact same as AirWire batteries. They are made by the same company.
https://www.rldhobbies.com/hje-4sc.aspx
Reindeer Pass Railroad - Mike Kidman, owner
Me: I would like to know your opinion on the preferable charger for charging battery packs. I just bought this battery pack from you:
http://www.reindeerpass.com/airwire-14-8v-6800-mah-liion-battery.aspx
Mike: When selecting a charger you need to match the battery chemistry(Li-Ion), battery voltage (14.8V), match the polarity correctly, and charge at a low rate. 1 -1.5 amps. We sell hundreds of the two we have listed on our site, Tenergy $32.99 and HJE $26.99, and have had almost no problems with them.
http://www.reindeerpass.com/tenergy-smart-charger-for-li-ion.aspx
CVP Products (Airwire) - Keith Gutierrez, owner
Me: Just to clarify, can I use the Tenergy TLP3000 1.5A charger to charge my new Airwire 14.8V 6800 MaH battery packs without damaging the batteries? Specification/description in quotes as follows: “Intelligent charger designed for all types of 14.8V (4 cells) Li-Ion Battery packs including Polymer Li-Ion and Cylindrical Li-Ion”.
Keith: The internet comments to the contrary are incorrect. The TLP3000 is a smart charger rated at 1.5A and can charge 14.8V lithium ion batteries. Click on the link below to go to the charger manufacturer’s website and read about this charger.
http://www.tenergy.com/01206-01
Garden Railroad Supply Company – Bob Ferguson, owner (15+ years doing train battery conversions, mostly for BAGRS club members).
Me: I’m having second thoughts about whether I purchased the correct charger from you when I asked you to do my first battery installation.
Bob: The CVP (Airwire) battery charger is the same Tenergy battery charger that I provide. Keith Guiterrez, the owner of CVP, is also the electronics designer and engineer who determined the correct charger to use with their battery packs. This is the charger that Tenergy recommended when I attended my original sales meeting at Tenergy to set up the proper products that I offer on my website. Your battery pack has 8 cells. It is actually two 4-cell packs wired in parallel to create the amperage advertised. Each 4-cell pack is wired in series to add the voltage of each cell (3.7v) together to arrive at 14.8 volts and 3400mAh. Adding the two 4-cell packs together in parallel gives you the 6800 mAh rating. The battery charger sees the battery pack as a 4-cell pack rated at 6800 mAh. You have the correct charger.
http://www.gardenrrsupply.com/charger-battery-li-ion-tlp-3000/
My head is now spinning…I’m going to have another martini…(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif)
After reading and re reading this I think best course of action is buy all your batteries and chargers from one person , that way they will be complimentary products and if there is a problem they should now what and how to remedy it. Good wuestion Richard , answers all o Er the map , like my dad used to say , “ clear as mud now”!!!
After reading and re reading this I think best course of action is buy all your batteries and chargers from one person , that way they will be complimentary products and if there is a problem they should now what and how to remedy it. Good wuestion Richard , answers all o Er the map , like my dad used to say , “ clear as mud now”!!!
Michael K,
“Frivolous posts” was in regard to a few posts from you and the bird toward the bottom on page one.
I suspect all the information you conveyed and or posted is real to all involved. Yet none of them answered the real question at hand.
“does the TLP-3000, 1.5A charger meet the OEMs specification for charging your 3400mAh Sanyo/Panasonic cells in 4S2P configuration?” The OEM spec for your 4S2P 6800 mA battery equals a charge rate of 3.25A.
I tend to follow instructions when provided by OEM’s, it’s my belief they are all knowing of their products.
Michael
Richard Mynderup said:
I’m trying to understand the charging at 80%. Back a few years ago when TOC was around he recommended I set up a charger I currently have to 80% for the charging of my NiMh…is this the same as you are talking about?
I also did some investigation on Amazon and found this particular charger that will do multiple chemistry’s.
Tenergy TB6-B Balance Charger Discharger 1S-6S Digital Battery Pack Charger for NiMH/NiCD/Li-PO/Li-Fe Packs w/ LCD Display Hobby Battery Charger w/ Tamiya/JST/EC3/HiTec/Deans Connectors + Power Supply
Would this be sufficient to charge the 6700 mAh batteries??
Richard
Excellent choice Richard… Michael
Craig Townsend said:
So if one wants to have charging happen at 80% of discharge, does that mean one should buy a battery that is 180% of expected run time?
Example: I want to run 3 hours no stop. Do I need/want to buy a battery that is 3 m.amp hours x 180 to determine the size of my battery?
Craig,
The 80% figures represent a best-case scenario for long service life, the info has been gleaned from Lab testing. In general, I suspect most batteries never see this kind of use. Best case and real world don’t always overlap.
Battery capacity equated as run time is not an easy calculation, there are many variables. I’ll use LG’s 3350mA cell specifications to hazard a guess.
The Constant Current discharge rating for one hour at rated voltage of the 3350 cell is 0.65A to 2.5V cut-off.
How much power can be garnered from the battery at 80% SoC?
You mention 3.0 hour run time is desired. We need to know how much power your engine will consume in 3.0 hours. Factor this number with 20% of battery capacity sounds right.
Michael
This discussion seems to be going round in circles with all the differing opinions and has no most likely confused the hell out of most people.
This I think explains most things, if you can get past the science bits.
https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries
I will now look at the charging regime of my Li chemistry batteries (Li-ion/Li-po) and adjust it accordingly.
I personally think it is time to put this baby to bed and move on, others will probably disagree but there you go.
Michael,
Take a typical USAT 4 axle locomotive. Say 3 amps at 3 hours. I’m just curious as well because my Nicad and Nimd batteries in my locomotives need to be replaced as they have been used in probably 10 plus years, and I’ve thought about replacing with LiOn.
I’m thankful to everyone for their candid and educational thoughts regarding the Li-Ion battery. I have already learned a lot and for that I’m most appreciative. I also have a lot more to digest as I await the new Tenergy TB6-B charger from Amazon…however, I have enyough to be dangerous as they say…not dangerous as in blowing up my train shed dangerous…
I’m good with discontinuing this post if you are…I wish all a good start to the new year!!
Richard
Hi Richard, before we end this thread I must support my original message. After being in this business for 20 years and transitioning to Lithium battery in 2014 I have a different perspective then the engineers.
I highly respect Greg and Michael accurate technical reply’s. I too have learned a lot from them and want them to continue to help us. They made assumptions not facts about my products. As a retailer my first responsibility is safety then technical correctness. I consulted with my Battery Assembler before makin this reply.
Based on selling over 600 lithium packs using 1 amp battery charger my customers have enjoyed a safe and expected runtime. I personally use our batteries and chargers. Yes convenience is great and my customers prefer it to removing the battery to charge and then selecting the correct setting in a charger each time. I sold the Triton programable chargers when we had no other choice. With our slow chargers I can offer Safety first and consistently achieve projected runtimes.
Don Sweet
RCS of New England
Richard Mynderup said:
I’m good with discontinuing this post if you are…I wish all a good start to the new year!!
Richard
I’m good with it as well Richard.
However it would be REALLY COOL to finish this post/thread with ALL those knowledgeable folks that have helped and chimed in show us some video of THEIR trains running or on their layout running Li-ion battery power.
Rooster, great idea!! I know I’ve really appreciated everyone’s input and experience. I feel after several years in the hobby I’m getting more and more knowledgeable but it’s not just because of me. I’ve gleaned a lot from all who have given their input.
So, I’m fine keeping this post alive…
Richard
Rooster ’ said:
Richard Mynderup said:
I’m good with discontinuing this post if you are…I wish all a good start to the new year!!
Richard
I’m good with it as well Richard.
However it would be REALLY COOL to finish this post/thread with ALL those knowledgeable folks that have helped and chimed in show us some video of THEIR trains running or on their layout running Li-ion battery power.
I would except for a couple of small technicalities;
- I am building my layout at present and have no track laid at present (will do when daytime temp is not 33C)
- I would to figure out how to shoot and retrieve a video on the wife’s camera and post it here (I have enough trouble with stills (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)
But I love to see videos of other layouts.
Thanks Don. You hit the nail on the head. Most of your customers prefer safety & simplicity over extended life in charge cycles. Not saying that this is a bad thing. The cost of convenience is part of the equation.
How many of Don’s 600 batteries are 4/5/6 cell series batteries, being charged with the correct 1A charger? How many are 4/5/6 series-parallel batteries are being slow charged with the 1A charger? What is the failure rate herein? Sadly most series-parallel battery owners don’t even recognize their batteries maybe suspect and not performing as they should.
I haven’t made any assumptions… I did however share published manufacturer data sheets; the FACTS!
Specifically, I provided links to the cell manufactures and battery charger’s data sheets with specifications in several threads. These manufactures are the authority on their products. Local joeys, battery resellers, hobby shops, wholesalers, battery assemblers and even battery charger manufactures are NOT the GO to people for recommending how to care and feed Lithium cells/batteries. What are the qualifications of these individuals for suggesting its acceptable practice to SLOW charge LG Chem, Samsung and or Panasonic Lithium cells contrary to the cell manufacturers published specifications? Perhaps those that continue to espouse inaccurate information can share documentation that supports their assertions that are again contrary to the cell OEM’s. Why would I or anyone else consider and follow said inaccurate recommendations from these individuals without valid published data, lab tests, empirical data and such. It’s really that simple………
Why hasn’t anyone inquired about the effects of slow charging our Lithium cells/batteries???
I’ve been involved with the 18650 Lithium cell types for 20 years as well NiCd, Ni-Mh and others of the RC car/truck/boat/aircraft world starting mid 90’s. The whole of my experience with Lithium 18650 cells began in 1998 with Tadarins 800mAh lithium metal cells, searching for lighter batteries to power the flight control systems of Giant Scale or 40% scale model airplanes. The needs of hungry digital servos proved early on that we’d have to utilize the cells in series-parallel formats. Around 2001 Lithium-Ion 18650’s cells came to market; the original cells were 2000mAh capacity. I/we gleaned real-world data on performance and short comings therein with lab charging and cycling equipment, flight logs and specifically monitoring and recording each and every battery in hand. A few years after the Lithium Ion 18650 were released Li-Po’s hit the beaches running. Electric powered aircraft was NOW a viable consideration. For many years my son and I were heavily involved in the RC Plane world traveling around the county to shows, invitation only contests and events. We had established multiple relationships/sponsorships with several battery assembler/resellers for the scale avionics world. I can suggest that we’ve used, graded and damaged thousands of Lithium batteries over the course of said experience. The battery sponsors gave us these batteries to evaluate, use and abuse.
I came to trains and batteries around 2007. I have a few engines equipped with Li-Ion batteries; the rest of my engines are equipped to use Li-Po’s. I continue to fly RC planes and play with other RC hobbies. Presently I care and feed 43 Lithium batteries for our toys. I also have equipment to grade, cycle and jigs to assemble 18650 cells into batteries with WELDED battery straps verses soldering wire or similar ilk.
I don’t have a bone in this game, I DON’T like to see others recommend and espouse what I know and can document is misinformation!
Link to maiden run of SP F3’s equipped with Airwire, Phoenix and Lithium power on my buddy Noels layout. I presently am layout less; a recent property purchase will eventually provide the space for a large layout.
Nuff said. Have fun guys.
Michael
