Large Scale Central

T. Boone Pickens

General Discussion
#21
mike omalley said:
Ralph, I'm not disagreeing with your specifics about the protest--I'm sure it happened. What I'm disagreeing with is the blanket labeling of environmentalists. As I said, there would be no such thing as clean air regulations, or coal fired plants that endeavored to burn more cleanly, if it wasn't for environmentalists. But the pleasure here seems to be mostly beating up on a straw man labled "environmentalists," who can be imagined as --as Ray put it--"extremists who think that mankind is a blight on the face of the earth. To them, humanity is the enemy. These are the over-emotional, brainless wackos, naysayers and NIMBYs who oppose everything while offering no realistic solultions of their own."

I mean, maybe I’m wrong–maybe there really are people like that–brainless wackos and naysaying nimbys. Millions and millions of people like that, maybe, and they are controlling our politics. I’ve never met one , though I keep reading here about them and what a grave danger they are and how they are ruining everything, and Rush likes to talk about them a lot.

I’m more concerned about what Exxon does with that 11 billion dollar profit than I am about straw men. Straw men can’t buy any influence in Congress


But you use the same blanket labeling, lumping all us train forum guys together and think that is OK.
And you lumped T. Boone Pickens in with Exxon.
You are guilty of the exact same thing you preach about. Of course, you have plenty of evidence(where?)
Ralph

#22

Well, the 11 Billion dollar profit represents a 6% profit. What other company gets so little profit? Can you name one, mike? Aren’t the investors entitled to a return on their investment?

#23
Steve Featherkile said:
Well, the 11 Billion dollar profit represents a 6% profit. What other company gets so little profit? Can you name one, mike? Aren't the investors entitled to a return on their investment?
If the 6% figure is correct.....I agree with you Steve. Ralph
#24

Ralph, I don’t thnk you’re right.

I observed that there are a lot of posts tarring “environmentalists” as extremists, and that bashing environmentalists was a popular pastime here–am I wrong?–check it out. I mean, right here, Ray branded all ‘’ environmentalists as brainless nimbys who hate mankind. And you agreed, adding “well said!”

I didn’t really accuse Exxon of anything other than making an 11.7 billion profit, which is how much they made last year. I didn’t accuse Pickens of anything other than having made his money in the same industry, which he did. And I spoke strictly for myself, saying that I would look to my wallet first, but also that I had no read or seen Pickens’ idea first. So where’s the blanket accusations?

I did suggest that 11.7 could buy a lot of influence. Does that seem unreasonable?

here is a result of a search for the term “environmentalists.” just read though them and tell me I’m wrong.

http://www.largescalecentral.com/LSCForums/search.php?search_id=64593761

Beating up on imaginary cartoon environmentalists is a popular pastime here–that’s all I observed.

#25
Steve Featherkile said:
Well, the 11 Billion dollar profit represents a 6% profit. What other company gets so little profit? Can you name one, mike? Aren't the investors entitled to a return on their investment?
Do you have a source for that? How was that figured? Is that the return on shareholder's investment? It's 6% over their costs? It was a record amount--even though the cost of their raw material went up drastically What's the foundation of that figure?

I suspect a lot of companies do less than 6% but I don’t know for sure. I wonder if Aristocraft makes 6%? I really don’t now

Of course they are entitled to a return on their investment–when did I ever say they were not? Really–I never said any such thing. I only said that I was somewhat puzzling that they made that profit even though the cost of their raw material went up dramatically. Usually it doesn’t work that way. But Exxon did an excellent job of passing their increased costs on to us. While asking congress for more tax breaks. They are entitled to do that, and they did it well.

But hey, those wacko environmentalists are at it again! It’s so pleasantly distracting!

#26

Mike,
I did not beat up on imaginary environmentalists. I cited a specific example.

I used the term “greenies”. Of course that does not include every single person with a concern for the environment.
I said unless they were willing to give up electricity and go back to riding horses they were being hypocrites by opposing wind farms and cleaner power plants.

If some one makes a statement about Republicans…they are making a generalization and common sense tells you they are not referring to every single Republican. If you choose to be anal retentive and take things literally you should check the mirror first.

And I can site many posts here…that have not labeled all environmentalists as wackos.
You have lumped everyone on this site and other train sites together.

“I’ve noticed on all the train forums that the single number one group to make fun of is environmentalists.”

You have lumped all the train forums together. Have you visited every single train forum in the world? Do you have statistics to prove this? Did you search to see how many times Democrats were made fun of? How about Gays? How about Politicians? I’ll bet you a paycheck Politicians are made fun of more than environmentalists.

Yes, some environmentalists are wackos. You have somebody in every walk of life that is a wacko.
Ralph

#27
Ralph Berg said:
Mike, I did not beat up on imaginary environmentalists. I cited a specific example.

I used the term “greenies”. Of course that does not include every single person with a concern for the environment.
I said unless they were willing to give up electricity and go back to riding horses they were being hypocrites by opposing wind farms and cleaner power plants.

If some one makes a statement about Republicans…they are making a generalization and common sense tells you they are not referring to every single Republican. If you choose to be anal retentive and take things literally you should check the mirror first.

And I can site many posts here…that have not labeled all environmentalists as wackos.
You have lumped everyone on this site and other train sites together.

“I’ve noticed on all the train forums that the single number one group to make fun of is environmentalists.”

You have lumped all the train forums together. Have you visited every single train forum in the world? Do you have statistics to prove this? Did you search to see how many times Democrats were made fun of? How about Gays? How about Politicians? I’ll bet you a paycheck Politicians are made fun of more than environmentalists.

Yes, some environmentalists are wackos. You have somebody in every walk of life that is a wacko.
Ralph


OK

#28
Ralph Berg said:
Saw T. Boone Pickens commercial for his "plan" for the first time today. http://push.pickensplan.com/video/video/show?id=2187034%3AVideo%3A7392 Right on sir! I've been saying the exact same thing..... on these forums. Ralph
This sure went sideways for a bit. Watch the video, look around the web site. He wants to produce electricity with wind and solar. Use the natural gas we burn to produce electricity for transportation instead. Convert the cars and trucks to natural gas, which is much cleaner than gasoline or diesel. He also agrees that this large amount of wealth leaving the country is not a good thing. Ralph
#29

I have been using Liquified Petroleum Gas (LPG) for many years in my cars.
They have all been fitted with the USA made Impco LPG system.
Although the mileage is a bit less than petrol, LPG does burn cleaner than straight petrol. It is also a whole lot less expensive than petrol here in Australia. Between 1/3rd and 1/2 the cost of petrol at the pump.
Australia has a LOT!!! of LPG.
Hyundai is developing a hybrid LPG/Electric vehicle that will be an instant hit when it is released.

BTW. There are quite a number of public transport buses running around here in Australia powered by Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) or Liquified Natural Gas (LNG).

#30
TonyWalsham said:
I have been using Liquified Petroleum Gas (LPG) for many years in my cars. They have all been fitted with the USA made Impco LPG system. Although the mileage is a bit less than petrol, LPG does burn cleaner than straight petrol. It is also a whole lot less expensive than petrol here in Australia. Between 1/3rd and 1/2 the cost of petrol at the pump. Australia has a LOT!!!! of LPG. Hyundai is developing a hybrid LPG/Electric vehicle that will be an instant hit when it is released.

BTW. There are quite a number of public transport buses running around here in Australia powered by Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) or Liquified Natural Gas (LNG).


This is what I’m saying. We need to do more of this in The States. I’m not 100% sure, but I believe the US has the largest known natural gas reserves.
Ralph

#31
mike omalley said:
I observed that there are a lot of posts tarring "environmentalists" as extremists, and that bashing environmentalists was a popular pastime here--am I wrong?--check it out. I mean, right here, Ray branded all '' environmentalists as brainless nimbys who hate mankind.
I think you missed my point... The environmentalist label best fits the extremists and wackos; and that not everyone who is concerned with the environment is an environmentalist.
#32
Ralph Berg said:
He also agrees that this large amount of wealth leaving the country is not a good thing. Ralph
Actually, the 700 billion dollar / year cost of imported oil and its drain on the U.S. economy is Pickens' starting point. He also points out that, along with the increased demand, oil will only become harder to find and more costly in the future.

Pickens recommends changes in our energy sources and how we employ the available energy to reduce the financial bleeding of our country and to help ensure future energy availability. His program would improve our domestic economy by re-routing much of the 700 billion dollars to domestic companies and improve the environment by significantly reducing waste hydrocarbon output. Instead of damaging or killing the economy by limiting, controlling, or stopping the means of production and the process of living, the Pickens Plan claims we could significantly improve our lot.

That alone is a refreshing change from Gore’s ‘we will all (with the exception of A.G. and his elitist friends) have to freeze in the dark in order to save the earth’ mantra.

BTW, LNG cost ~$3.00 / gallon in California. I would think that freeing up the LNG currently used to produce electricity could reduce that price. Gasoline has ~125,000 BTU / gallon, with LNG at ~91,000 BTU / gallon, or ~25% less energy / gallon. The lower energy content of LNG can be overcome by specifically designing engines to use LNG.

LNG has a significantly higher octane rating, thus working better in higher compression engines without additives such as lead, and is much easier on engines from a wear standpoint, so should be a good substitute for gasoline. Honda’s GX-NGV LNG fueled (not a hybrid) car has the lowest emissions of any available IC vehicle. And we don’t have to send dollars to some Arab who hates us to get it fueled!

Happy RRing,

Jerry

#33

Jerry,
I know the money leaving the country is his biggest concern. I phrased it that particular way because I had an earlier post on trade deficits in which I was arguing what a drain it was on the economy.
The good thing about using Natural Gas for transportation is that we can convert vehicles and not have to start from scratch.
I’m glad T. Boone Pickens has a plan. I certainly haven’t heard any viable plan from ANY politician, including George W.
Ralph

#34
Ralph Berg said:
I know the money leaving the country is his biggest concern. I phrased it that particular way because I had an earlier post on trade deficits in which I was arguing what a drain it was on the economy.
That's the reason I wanted to emphasize the financial point. I fully agree with you that the 700 billion dollars that leave the U.S. to pay for foreign oil is hurting our economy, plus it boosts the economies of those who are only marginally our friends.
Quote:
The good thing about using Natural Gas for transportation is that we can convert vehicles and not have to start from scratch.
And future new vehicles designed for LNG will have even better performance and lower pollution due to the basic nature of the LNG. Just take a look at the Honda LNG vehicle I referenced above.
Quote:
I'm glad T. Boone Pickens has a plan. I certainly haven't heard any viable plan from ANY politician, including George W.
IMHO, the U.S. does not have an energy plan, viable or not. The current resident of the White House, along with both the pretenders to the throne do not have a plan beyond feeble efforts to control pump prices with goofy stuff such as McCain and Clinton's proposed 'tax holiday'. I assume Obama's plan is to go over to Saudi Arabia and down to Argentina where he will try to convince them to lower the price for a barrel of oil. Lots of luck with that!

And further afield, we have things like the California dictum that 20% of the energy produced by the electric utilities must come from renewable resources in the near future. Sounds great, but the same ‘environmentalists’ who fought for the energy production law are now standing in the way of implementation. That’s not a plan, but rather stupidity as well as a misuse of government power.

Happy RRing,

Jerry

#35

“That’s the reason I wanted to emphasize the financial point. I fully agree with you that the 700 billion dollars that leave the U.S. to pay for foreign oil is hurting our economy, plus it boosts the economies of those who are only marginally our friends.”

Jerry,
It is boosting the economy of some who are not our friends at all.
Some of the money is being spent here, buying our companies.
Buying more than we sell in the world market cannot continue indefinitely.
Ralph

#36

Of course they passed on their increased costs to us. Who else would they pass them on too? Any company that doesn’t won’t be in business for very long. In another forum here everyone was complaining about Aristo increasing their track prices. Higher transportation and material costs added to it. Most electronic’s companies make close to $.25 on every dollar earned . Microsoft makes closer to $.28 on every dollar. What companies make in profit depends on how much competition they have in their particular industry. I don’t begrudge them a cent. They employ millions of people. Big companies make big profits. Verizon, DuPont’s, Microsoft, Intel, Wal-Mart, and countless others make huge amounts of money. They also employ huge amount’s of people and have huge amounts of overhead, so they better make that money to stay in business.

What tax breaks? The government get’s close to 60% of what oil companies make. I would call that a “windfall” profit. The rest goes to exploration and the cost’s of leases on the the land they explore., marketing, maintenance, transportation, upgrades, and list goes on if a company wants to stay profitable.

Then there’s the talk of “Windfall” profits. What exactly does that mean? And how exactly do you measure a “windfall” profit? I’d consider anybody who got a year end bonus from the company they work for as a “Windfall”. So a company cuts their expenses a bit and makes a higher profit off of it. Should they be punished
for it?

The fact is this country has enormous energy deposits that we can’t get too, because of so called “Environmental whacko’s”. These same people have no problem with disrupting the “pristine” environment’s of other countries. Are the deserts of middle east oil producing countries any less “pristine” that the ANWR? Are the water’s off Venezuela any less pristine than our coast? Are the mountains of the Caucasus’ and the water’s of the Black Sea any less pristine than ours? We import billions of dollars of raw materials that we already have but aren’t allowed to exploit. More oil is dumped into our oceans from seepage from underground deposits than from drilling and oil spills. But that doesn’t make “dramatic” news.

#37

another point to ponder…

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/PhilHarris/2008/07/22/the_hand_of_man_and_delusions_of_grandeur?page=full&comments=true

#38

I don’t know if anyone can measure the influence “Greenie’s” have on our Government policies, but I believe I can state that they certainly try. What I have personally observed, and have been impacted by, is that many government employees are environmentalists whackos, greenies or whatever you want to call them and they impact our lives daily by stalling on any and every project they can get their hands into. It causes tremendous cost to almost every form of development whether it is justified or not. To a “Beaurocrat” the procedure is the highest form of doing the job. They are not concerned with the bottom line or the cost/return numbers, but the ability to impact any and all processes, no matter how small. And the greatest impact they have is to have the power of observation or consultation and then do neither, but simply stall to impact any and all growth or production in our daily lives. And that adds a price that we must all bare at every level as a consumer.

#39

The greatest of ironies: Water vapor makes up 98% of all so-called “greenhouse gasses.” The “greens” (see the connection?) are pushing the fuel cell as the latest in automobile fuel systems. The fuel cell works by converting hydrogen into (gasp) water vapor!

Oh, the horror! Oh, the humanity!

#40
Steve Featherkile said:
The greatest of ironies: Water vapor makes up 98% of all so-called "greenhouse gasses." The "greens" (see the connection?) are pushing the fuel cell as the latest in automobile fuel systems. The fuel cell works by converting hydrogen into (gasp) water vapor!

Oh, the horror! Oh, the humanity!


Par for the course. Just like catalytic converters. Create a toxic gas to rid us of an inert gas.
The new diesel particulate filters are also crap. When the filter “cleans” itself my eyes, throat and nose burn while I’m in the cab of the truck.
Get rid of a little soot and kill the driver.
Ralph