Large Scale Central

Sure to Stir up Conversation

mike omalley said:
I'm never quite sure how to respond to this kind of statement. I became a historian out of patriotism, and because I love my country, and I've spent a lot of hours studying its history in ridiculous detail. But my classes are often critical--generally, critical of moments when the US fails to live up to its ideals. For one thing, I'm not responsible for what other countries do. I'm not a citizen of Chad or China or Cuba. But I AM responsible for what the US does--as a citizen of a republic, it's my responsibility if the US, say, starts torturing people or holding people without due process. Other countries do this all the time, it's true, but I'm not a citizen of those countries, and those countries don't claim to stand for a higher notion of justice, fairness and the rule of law.

I don’t feel any outright hatred for the US, or anything close to it. The US is an astonishing accompishment. But what’s the point of a history that simply says “we’re the greatest?” And surely the point of my US history class is not to denounce, say Myanmar?


This is so consonant with my own feelings it’s scary.

Richard Smith said:
Steve Featherkile said:
It has been said that at least Hitler made the trains run on time... That is about the only positive thing I can think of...
Hehe Steve. Mussolini(sp?) made the trains run on time. Hitler put people to work until the armaments factories were all bombed out.
Was that it? My bad. If you've seen one dick tater, you've seen 'em all... :lol:

I guess Hitler had a full employment policy, then…

At the risk of being called a right wing extremist by Tim, yet again, I would like to explore the ideas in the original posting, idea by idea. Let’s take the opening paragraphs, first. Mike, feel free to chime in here, anywhere, your opinions are valued, even where I might disagree. You, too, Tim, but please keep the personal attacks to a minimum. :slight_smile: Ken, Kevin, and everybody else, join in the fun… Here we go. :lol:

Steve Featherkile quoting Ralph Peters said:
[b]UNAWARE[/b] of the cost of freedom and served by leaders without military expertise, Americans have started to believe whatever's comfortable. We've never had better men and women in uniform. But our leaders, and many of our fellow Americans, no longer grasp what war means or what it takes to win. Thanks to those who have served in uniform, we've lived in such safety and comfort for so long that for many Americans sacrifice means little more than skipping a second trip to the buffet table.

Two trends over the past four decades contributed to our national ignorance of the cost of, and necessity for, victory.

[b]First,[/b] Ivy League universities once produced heroes.  Now they resist Reserve Officer Training Corps representation on their campuses.  Yet, our leading universities still produce a disproportionate number of US political leaders. The men and women destined to lead us in wartime dismiss military service as a waste of their time and talents.  Delighted to pose for campaign photos with our troops, elected officials disdain the military in private.  Only one serious presidential aspirant in either party is a veteran while another presidential hopeful pays as much for a single haircut as I took home in a month as an Army private. 

[b]Second,[/b] we've stripped in-depth US history classes out of our schools.  Since the 1960's one history course after another has been cut while the content of those remaining focuses on social issues.  Dumbed-down textbooks minimize the wars that kept us free. As a result ignorance of the terrible price our troops had to pay for freedom in the past creates absurd expectations about our present conflicts.  When the media offers flawed or biased analysis, the public lacks the knowledge to make informed judgments.

National leadership with no military expertise and a population that hasn’t been taught the cost of freedom leaves us with a government that does whatever seems expedient and a citizenry that believes whatever’s comfortable. Thus, myths about war thrive.


My undergraduate major in college was in history, with emphasis in European history from the The French Revolution to the Cold War. Yes, that covers a lot of material, but I couldn’t help myself, it was fascinating. My major professor was a WW II vet, saw combat as an infantryman from the first wave at Omaha Beach to the Rhine River, where he finally got his “Million Dollar Wound.” He was also an unabashed “liberal.” My favorite professor enlisted in the Army at Ft Lewis in 1935 because he needed a job, found himself in Air Corps Intelligence on December 7, 1941 at March Field, Ca, and retired from the Air Force in 1963 as a Lt. Col in Air Force Intelligence. He spent a lot of time in the Middle East, knew King Saud and King Hussein personally. He was an unabashed conservative. Naturally, that produced a very interesting dichotomy in my education. Those two were best of buddies, primarily based on their mutual respect for shared experiences during 1942-1945. However, they would often get into some verbal donnybrooks the like of which you have never seen. Never did they resort to name calling, however. Perhaps we can do the same.

Now, to the debate. Today’s leaders here in the US, largely do not know what war is. There are exceptions, but they are rare. Warriors hate war. We have seen what war does, and do not wish that on our worst enemy. However, sometimes war is necessary. Sometimes, talk is not enough. We must be prepared to fight at all times. The policies of appeasement do not work. The 1930’s proved that. So did the 1990’s. The best way to avoid war is to be prepared to fight it at all times, and sometimes you have to fight. Wars usually take longer than 30 minutes.

What has happened to our education system, where any talk of what happens in war is expunged from history classes? I took my then college senior (now first grade teacher) daughter to see the movie “Pearl Harbor.” Horrible movie. It was historically accurate in that the Japanese did attack Pearl Harbor and 16 B-25’s did bomb cities in Japan a few months later. What was surprising was that my daughter had no knowledge of Jimmie Doolittle’s Raid. How can this be? So, we sat down and had a long talk about history. She knew nothing of Belleau Wood, had heard of Omaha Beach, but did not know its significance. She had not heard of Utah Beach. She did not know what Guadalcanal was, nor Saipan, nor Iwo Jima (this was before “Letters from…”). To her credit, she had heard of the Charge up San Juan Hill, but did not know where it occurred, nor who we were fighting at the time. The list goes on. The only battle of the War of Northern Aggression she could name was Gettysburg.

This is an almost college graduate. How can someone get through our education system without knowing this stuff? It is no wonder that our politicians fail miserably to lead. They just do not know enough of history.

I understand about academic freedom. I fully support the concept. But, what about the academic freedom of college students to take ROTC if they so desire? Is it only those who march in lockstep with the academic left who deserve academic freedom?

FIRST, There’s no one stopping ROTC to my knowledge. ROTC is thriving on my campus. As far as I know, nothing prevents any student from joining an ROTC program. Ivy League schools have them–Harvard, for for example, has an ROTC program.

I think you are confusing people who protest the presence of ROTC and recruiters on campus–and there are such people–with some kind of prohibition of ROTC. As I mentioned, my grad classes are full of active duty officers who are very sharp–as far as I can tell there’s no dearth of smart guys in the officer corps.

SECOND, I’d be happy to see more in depth history courses. But I’m not sure what’s meant by depth. Which is more important to teach–Hitler’s tank tactics, or the social and political conditions that led to the rise of fascism? The specific tactics of the Italian campaign in WWII, or the social and political mobilization on the home front that allowed th US to fight the war on such a truly massive scale? I’d argue it’s probably the latter. What’s most important about the Civil War is not Lee’s cavalry tactics, it’s the political issues the war was fought about. We tend to disagree about that, which is why it’s easier to tell anecdotes about Lee’s horse or watch TV shows about airplanes in WWII. To my mind, I’m dumbing down WWII if I only talk about battles. I just spent the day telling a group of high school teachers about WWI. Most of it was not about the military conduct of the war, but about the Wilson admin’s conduct on the home front.

I think the fact that your college prof was a vet indicates not a decline in support for the military, but rather simply the staggering size of the WWII mobilization. 16 MILLION people served, most of them drafted. There has never been any mobilization on that scale since.

Your daughter’s ignorance is lamentable, and I don’t really want to defend it, but you’re asking me to try. Kids today are expected to know a lot–they do more advanced math than I did. There are whole fields, involving computers, that didn’t exist when I was a kid. And there’s been a ton more history–every year there’s more, and every event stakes a claim for importance. Martin luther king and the Civil rights movement are important, Vietnam was important, Watergate, the oil crises, the fall of the Berlin wall, the first gulf war–all these things have to be taught and to do that something else has to go. High school teachers have only so many hours in the day. That’s just a simple logistical fact. Only experts know much about specific battle in specific wars–what do you know about the Battle of Cowpens, which more directly secured our freedom than any battle of WWII? I’d be willing to bet nothing. That’s not because you’re ignorant, it’s because a lot has happened since 1781. Did you ask her what she DID know?

Washington DC is full of statues of soldiers on horseback, guys who were important enough that people put up statues. Most people–often me included–have no idea who they are and what they did.

At the same time there seems to be no decline at all in the number of books, movies and TV shows dedicated to WWII. Ken Burns just did major documentary. Academics and military historians continue to write about the war

“Today’s leaders here in the US, largely do not know what war is.” Nobody really does–all wars are different, and even single wars are different. Naval combat in WWII told you nothing about land combat. WWII bears little resemblance to the Iraq War.

“The best way to avoid war is to be prepared to fight it at all times…” You know, this is interesting. Historically, until the 1950s, the American people were EXTREMELY reluctant to fund a large Army. It was expensive–you had to tax people to support it. And it was regarded as a danger to liberty. Historically, Americans preferred to mobilize quickly and then just as quickly disband. That’s the story of the war of 1812, the mex/am war, the civil war, the Sp/Am war, WWI, WWII, maybe also Korea and vietnam. The real departure comes in the 1970s. If you want to use US history as an argument for a large standing army, you will be hard pressed to find examples

Very good, Mike, well thought out. Now, let’s see if I can respond in a coherent manner. :smiley:

mike omalley said:
FIRST, There's no one stopping ROTC to my knowledge. ROTC is thriving on my campus. As far as I know, nothing prevents any student from joining an ROTC program. Ivy League schools have them--Harvard, for for example, has an ROTC program.

I think you are confusing people who protest the presence of ROTC and recruiters on campus–and there are such people–with some kind of prohibition of ROTC. As I mentioned, my grad classes are full of active duty officers who are very sharp–as far as I can tell there’s no dearth of smart guys in the officer corps.


There is no dearth of smart guys in the officer corps, nor in the enlisted ranks. The guys I served with are the best and the brightest. There are campuses where ROTC has been disbanded.

mike omalley said:
SECOND, I'd be happy to see more in depth history courses. But I'm not sure what's meant by depth. Which is more important to teach--Hitler's tank tactics, or the social and political conditions that led to the rise of fascism? The specific tactics of the Italian campaign in WWII, or the social and political mobilization on the home front that allowed th US to fight the war on such a truly massive scale? I'd argue it's probably the latter. What's most important about the Civil War is not Lee's cavalry tactics, it's the political issues the war was fought about. We tend to disagree about that, which is why it's easier to tell anecdotes about Lee's horse or watch TV shows about airplanes in WWII. To my mind, I'm dumbing down WWII if I only talk about battles. I just spent the day telling a group of high school teachers about WWI. Most of it was not about the military conduct of the war, but about the Wilson admin's conduct on the home front.
Tactics are best left to the ROTC courses, even better, to the Officer's Basic School. However, to produce students who know nothing about what happened in WW II is, to my mind, criminal. What happens on the battlefield directly influences what happens on the Hill, and vice-versa. The Wilson Administration's conduct is an appropriate topic for your students, but so is Black Jack Pershing's. What happened at Point du Hoc does not deserve an hour's discussion in a High school history class, but does deserve mention.
mike omalley said:
I think the fact that your college prof was a vet indicates not a decline in support for the military, but rather simply the staggering size of the WWII mobilization. 16 MILLION people served, most of them drafted. There has never been any mobilization on that scale since.

Your daughter’s ignorance is lamentable, and I don’t really want to defend it, but you’re asking me to try. Kids today are expected to know a lot–they do more advanced math than I did. There are whole fields, involving computers, that didn’t exist when I was a kid. And there’s been a ton more history–every year there’s more, and every event stakes a claim for importance. Martin luther king and the Civil rights movement are important, Vietnam was important, Watergate, the oil crises, the fall of the Berlin wall, the first gulf war–all these things have to be taught and to do that something else has to go. High school teachers have only so many hours in the day. That’s just a simple logistical fact. Only experts know much about specific battle in specific wars–what do you know about the Battle of Cowpens, which more directly secured our freedom than any battle of WWII? I’d be willing to bet nothing. That’s not because you’re ignorant, it’s because a lot has happened since 1781. Did you ask her what she DID know?


Well, let’s see. The Battle of The Cowpens was where General Morgan kicked ass on that bugger Tarleton, at The Cowpens, SC. It led directly to Cornwallis being trapped at Yorktown. “Tarleton’s Quarter” was a rallying cry of the caliber of “Remember the Alamo,” or, “Retreat, hell, we just got here,” or “Nuts.” Is it necessary for HS students to know about The Cowpens? Probably not. But I think that Yorktown certainly deserves mention. And, yes, I did ask her what she did know. It wasn’t much.

mike omalley said:
Washington DC is full of statues of soldiers on horseback, guys who were important enough that people put up statues. Most people--often me included--have no idea who they are and what they did.

At the same time there seems to be no decline at all in the number of books, movies and TV shows dedicated to WWII. Ken Burns just did major documentary. Academics and military historians continue to write about the war

“Today’s leaders here in the US, largely do not know what war is.” Nobody really does–all wars are different, and even single wars are different. Naval combat in WWII told you nothing about land combat. WWII bears little resemblance to the Iraq War.


And, Naval combat in WW II bears no resemblance to Naval Combat today. For that matter, Naval Combat of even 10 years ago bears little resemblance to Naval combat today. But, the kind of destruction that is wreaked, the kind of sacrifice that is required, and the kind of heroism that is produced would be recognized by General Morgan’s men if they were to look down on today’s American military.

mike omalley said:
"The best way to avoid war is to be prepared to fight it at all times..." You know, this is interesting. Historically, until the 1950s, the American people were EXTREMELY reluctant to fund a large Army. It was expensive--you had to tax people to support it. And it was regarded as a danger to liberty. Historically, Americans preferred to mobilize quickly and then just as quickly disband. That's the story of the war of 1812, the mex/am war, the civil war, the Sp/Am war, WWI, WWII, maybe also Korea and vietnam. The real departure comes in the 1970s. If you want to use US history as an argument for a large standing army, you will be hard pressed to find examples
This is true. However, times change. The Atlantic and the Pacific are no longer barriers to potential enemies. In today's high tech military, it is no longer feasible to depend on mobilizing in two weeks an army of frontiersmen who are already hardened to the rigors of military life and know how to shoot their muzzle-loaders.
mike omalley said:
I'd be happy to see more in depth history courses. But I'm not sure what's meant by depth. Which is more important to teach--Hitler's tank tactics, or the social and political conditions that led to the rise of fascism? The specific tactics of the Italian campaign in WWII, or the social and political mobilization on the home front that allowed th US to fight the war on such a truly massive scale?
The why in preference to the how, every time. However, if there is a WWII battle high school students ought to know about, it's the battle off Okinawa against the Kamikazes [sic] in 1945. For better or for worse, we denizens of the earliest 21st century could do worse than than try to understand it. Did you know the ratio of killed to wounded for the USN in this conflict was around 1:2? On Okinawa itself, it was around 1:5.
mike omalley said:
Did you ask her what she DID know?
A much better eye deer, every time.
mike omalley said:
Historically, until the 1950s, the American people were EXTREMELY reluctant to fund a large Army. It was expensive--you had to tax people to support it. And it was regarded as a danger to liberty. Historically, Americans preferred to mobilize quickly and then just as quickly disband. That's the story of the war of 1812, the mex/am war, the civil war, the Sp/Am war, WWI, WWII, maybe also Korea and vietnam. The real departure comes in the 1970s. If you want to use US history as an argument for a large standing army, you will be hard pressed to find examples
The phenomenon Mike describes characterises just about every country where people freely elect their governments.

Steve, I never would have picked you for a History major! Me, too. I got hooked on computers in the early '80s when I took the place of a bloke too ill to attend a one-day How to Use Computers course that had already been paid for. The presenter put X = X + 1 on the blackboard, and I was hooked - that’s my kind of math!

Ken Brunt said:
You may admire the american people but you sure have a funny way of showing it.
George Bernard Shaw once described the English and the Americans as two nations separated by a common language. That quixotic turn of phrase applies equally well to Aussies and Yanks. Don't let the superficial resemblances fool you.

I think Tim is a dab hand at the ancient Australian art of stirring up folks with outrageous statements, for no other reason than the joy of getting them steamed up. I’m not saying Tim doesn’t mean what he says, but I have lived here long enough to be deeply suspicious of his motives for saying it!

There is a peculiar “Okker” Aussie stereotype that manifests itself by being impervious to criticism, even enjoying it, especially if the perpetrator doesn’t care if he’s in the wrong. It’s a kind of “I’m alright, Jack, nothing you can do or say can touch me” attitude that can be infuriating if you don’t realise what’s going on.

Tim may be getting a perverse pleasure out of stirring you guys up. For all I know, he may also be getting Qantas FF points for doing it!

Dave, Tim would never do that! Not on your life (fair dinkum) … welllllllllllllll actually, pushing a few of those redder than red-neck buttons … hmmmmm … kind of hard to resist.

(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/teufel/devil-smiley-023.gif)

(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/teufel/devil-smiley-023.gif)

Dave,
in so far as the Qantas FF points, well almost 35 years of employment in Qantas, I saw enough of the world that when I retired I had enough ‘points’ accrued for five trips around the world. After retirement I never stepped foot inside another aircraft - enough is enough.

    Pot stirring is a clever tool to wake people out of their stereotyped slumber.  Some look at an object and only see what they are told to see.  By seeing what is actually there, one is awakened to reality.  I have no political interest in the actions of another country but I do have a human interest in how those actions impact on my existence as a human being.  Australia's history was filled with Aussie troops voluntarily going to war to help other countries.  During the first world war a referendum was crushed that tried to implement conscription.  Australians volunteered,  they did not need to be told to go to war.  It was not until Australia's shores were threatened in WW2,  by the Japanese,  that the decision was made to bring Australian troops home to defend our shores.  It took conscription in the 1960's/early 1970's to help prop up the South Vietnam regime.  Most, outside of government, were aware that this was an unjust  'political' war.

   
    War is a failure of man to come to terms with his neighbour.  Education should centre on the positive side of our human existence and not dwell on our failure as human beings.  As a human being,  my life is not enriched by being taught the battle tactics of every battle or skirmish that makes up a war in whatever country or whatever age in history.

Tim, I well and truly understand your aversion to flying. Were it not for wanting to see family, I would not be setting foot in an airplane again, either.

Most Americans have no idea of the dimensions of the Australian sacrifice in WWI, when Australia suffered more deaths per capita than any other nation involved in the conflict. They also have little inking of the animosity that existed between Wilson and Hughes at the Versailles conference. The idea of not one, but two, national referendums on selective service would be alien to them.

Most Australians don’t recall that, for a brief period prior to WWII, Australia was the only nation, aside from Nazi Germany, denied the tariff exemptions associated with America’s “most favored nation” status. They also tend to forget the cheap shots taken by Douglas MacArthur (and Thomas Blamey) at Australian soldiers fighting on the Kokoda Trail in 1942. The intense patriotism inculcated into American elementary (primary) school students as they grow up - Pledge of Allegiance, national anthem, respect for the flag - does not exist in anything like the same way in Oz.

Ever read Alan Ashbolt’s “The American Experience”, based on living a year in the US several decades ago? It is both funny and perceptive, gentle yet cutting, and goes a long way towards explaining why I think Shaw’s aphorism about people divided by a common language is applicable to the US-Australia relationship.

While I accept that much of what you’ve had to say recently about US history and politics is sustainable, even if I don’t agree with it, I doubt dwelling on the mistakes of the past is particularly useful except as a reminder that the two countries, while united on many foreign policy issues, have not always seen eye to eye. Furthermore, until recent times neither country, especially Australia, has been shy about saying so.

I’m delighted to see Australia shifting back to a more traditional foreign policy paradigm vis a vis the US. I’m also delighted to have a government that is serious about building bridges to Asia. I will never lose my love for the country where I was born and raised, but I recognise that my adopted homeland cannot afford to be myopic when it comes to its relationships with other foreign countries. If that means we don’t always march to the beat of the American drum, that’s OK.

Tim Brien said:
War is a failure of man to come to terms with his neighbour.
Mmmmmmmmmmmm maybe.....

I do not think that an example can be shown of a democracy going to war against another democracy. As much as I would have liked to humiliate the Frogs under Chirac, the French under Zarcozy are turning out to be fine fellows! Yes, I know, I probably butchered the spelling of their names, and will take flack for that (shields up!), there is a reason, I have been sampling some of Mexico’s finest Holy Water. Now, then, where was I, oh, yeah, democracies and war. Ain’t gonna happen! If a democracy goes to war, it is because it feels threatened by a totalitarian (try spelling that after a few bottles of Holy Water) gummint. Say what you will, the US of A felt duly threatened by Iraq in 2002-2003.

Could we have come to terms with Saddam? Nope. There were 17 UN resolutions regarding WMD after Desert Storm that he ignored. He had no intention to come to terms. At some point you just have to draw a line in the sand.

I agree with Tim that war between democracies is a failure of the democracies to come to terms, but then, I really can’t see that happening, can you?

BTW, Tim and I share a similar fault. We both like to stir the pot just to see what will boil to the top. :lol: :stuck_out_tongue:

I also understand Tim’s aversion to flying. This pseudo security that we have to put up with is a strong disincentive. Take my shoes and belt off, bend over and crack a smile? No thank you. I will fly military air anytime, because the crew chief always flies with the airplane. Or, if it is a fighter type, I will take it up and try to tear the wings off of it, so what the heck. But to get into a big cigar tube and trust my life to someone whom I have never met? Not going to happen. I will take the train, thank you very much.

Steve Featherkile said:
Tim Brien said:
War is a failure of man to come to terms with his neighbour.
Mmmmmmmmmmmm maybe..... Say what you will, the US of A felt duly threatened by Iraq in 2002-2003.

Could we have come to terms with Saddam? Nope. There were 17 UN resolutions regarding WMD after Desert Storm that he ignored. He had no intention to come to terms. At some point you just have to draw a line in the sand.


Threatened ? Bullcrap ! What we had was a PEST who was MOCKING us. So “W” decided to take him down. Simple as that.
Ralph

Gee, Ralph. Say what you really mean. Don’t hold back! :smiley:

Steve Featherkile said:
Gee, Ralph. Say what you really mean. Don't hold back! :D
Maybe its the lack of caffeine.:lol: Ralph

:lol:

Ralph Berg said:
Steve Featherkile said:
Gee, Ralph. Say what you really mean. Don't hold back! :D
Maybe its the lack of caffeine.:lol: Ralph
Ralph,

Not only was Saddam going to import Yellow Cake without end, he also plotted to have Shrub the Elder assassinated (way back when). Of course the plot was reported by the same “experts” who reported the Yellow Cake “sale”. And going strictly on their past record … oh my … they must have a real selection of “let’s fake it” agents all over the place.

But it was good enough for Shrub the Younger and it was certainly swallowed hook, line and sinker by a lot more people who one usually would have given credit for at least some smarts. However when it comes to oil just about any tactic will do!

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Ralph Berg said:
Steve Featherkile said:
Gee, Ralph. Say what you really mean. Don't hold back! :D
Maybe its the lack of caffeine.:lol: Ralph
Ralph,

Not only was Saddam going to import Yellow Cake without end, he also plotted to have Shrub the Elder assassinated (way back when). Of course the plot was reported by the same “experts” who reported the Yellow Cake “sale”. And going strictly on their past record … oh my … they must have a real selection of “let’s fake it” agents all over the place.

But it was good enough for Shrub the Younger and it was certainly swallowed hook, line and sinker by a lot more people who one usually would have given credit for at least some smarts. However when it comes to oil just about any tactic will do!


HJ,
I don’t even think it was about oil. It was about pride. Sadam was being a pest and mocking us. George W. was going to make an example of him.
Meanwhile, it blew up in his face and when the real danger, North Korea, started its saber rattling, George W had his hands tied. So now, he has a BS agreement with N. Korea that means diddly, in order to save face.
Ralph