Stan Ames said:
Dave
I never ever recommended 24 volt motors in Large Scale. I have no idea how you could reach that conclusion from anything I have ever posted. Most 24 volt DC motors simply do not have good speed performance at lower speeds.
Simple, really. You are the one who inserted 24v motors. Or at least with 24v input they had better be. You still, really, have no idea how I or anyone else could think that?
But like it or not LGB and others in DC have promoted 24 volt DC for years. It is the generally accepted maximun track voltage in Large Scale.
With the 5V drop on the input, as I said before. Lets all the lights and sirens come on before the loco moves. Before you make assumptions, wire in a voltmeter to the motors. Makes it about, oh, give or take 19v, which is why…surprise of surprises…the K and Barry’s stuff uses 19V motors.
You do bring up a very key technical point and that is motor winding.
I think we can agree that 12 volt motors in large scale while common are simply asking for problems.
Most likely. See what the Bachmann handcar has in it. I think I saved some with brillo pad windings.
And I think we can agree that most 24 volt windings also do not work well. Pittman years back recommended 19 volt windings for their motors. Different motor types likely will require different windings values but clearly this is a design constraint manufacturers must consider.
So, why the adding of 7) Good top speed at 24 V? You run a 12V motor on 16V, you’ll have problems sooner than later. You run a 19V motor on 24V, same issue, eventually. Why do I think you want 24V motors? Because that’s what you run with 24V supplies to the track.
I did forget to mention:
“I am not a motor expert. Barry might be a better one to answer your question.”
and then “Most motor manufacturers all for over voltage with no ill effects.” , which begs the question, what are the specs? If 10% overvoltage on a 19V motor, you aren’t at 24 yet.
Load and current handling is far more important. I recall one manufacturer who chose an “S” or stock motor over the more expensive (initially) “E” or engineered motor, the current handling capabilities of which would barely run a light loco without exceeding the limits…and sure enough, they smoked.
Stan
TOC
Dave (TOC),
we have to be careful we do not get what we wish for. When my son was into R/C cars, motors were available with motor windings like fencing wire and ESC’s to handle the power needed were astronomically priced (as much as the complete chassis). These cars would deplete a fully charged competition battery in around three minutes. Hardly suitable for railroads relying on battery power but probably ideal for power supply manufacturers catering to those track power users who demand BIG power and lots of it.
Quartering wheels/axles?
Simple.
Square-ended axles and wheels with square holes in the correct orientation. 'spin done on 00 wheels and axles since the '40s…some sensible manufacturers in LS do it, I’m told.
As for taking forty minutes to climb a grade from a starting location, all I have to say about that is -
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I’d sure like your bank balance.
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I’d sure like a piece of your layout to play with - mine, as many here know, is only 84 feet long and that’s if you straighten it out.
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Lastly, I’m more than happy to be your local LS train supplier - the way you must go through locomotives - either by crashing them into walls, or setting them afire, gives hope for the continuing future supply of LS trains in YOUR 'burg, at least.
tac and the gang, in downtown Portland OR
PS - I’ve been a LS train operator - electric and steam - since the late 1960s - and I’ve NEVER blown up a boiler, or, more to the point of this thread, fried or even smoked an electric loco once. Guess I’m only doing what Mr Average Guy would do, given the signs and warnings, and backed off at the first hint of the funny smell of leaking electricity.
Off forum there has been quite a laugh about length of time and grades. I have a fairly long 4% grade to compensate for the slop of the yard. It is 150’ long. Even if I got on my hands and knees and crawled along it, maybe 5 minutes. Not too many 150’ long grades in LS out there…altho I do know of some huge 2-rail 0 layouts that take 3 or 4 circles of 90’X32’ rooms to get to the top…still not 40 minutes.
Tim…the issue with the handcar motors, I think, it 24V Bridgeworks and an attempt to “keep up” with Greg’s E-8 passenger train. The windings literally blew out of the case.
I’ll look later, see if I kept one.
Good thing about those handcars…cut the figure lugs off, repaint if necessary, add handcar stubs, and you’ve got free scenery. I must have a dozen either on the railroad or on flatcars.
TOC
Back in the days of slot cars, 1/24th scale, big banked ovals, 16 lanes; I used to rewind the little and medium Mabuchi motors. Bought armature wire 24, and 22 gauge, added ball bearings to the armatures, reckoned 50,000 rpm. Electric brakes. A lot of fun and a bit of education.
I buy Pittman seven pole ball-bearing 8000 series motors. I don’t warrant them, because I don’t build them, but I do support them. Over the years there have been failures, six motors my customers had to replace (buy) and a dozen or two where I replaced the brushes.
Otherwise, I believe I have made a good choice. All of the motors have the same winding specs and build specs. And frankly, I believe they have performed brilliantly.
When the Connie drives leave the shop the no-load amp level is .2 or less, sweet.
Top no load rpm at 19.1 volts is 10,000. We never see that, because we have put it to work.
Barry
Dave we inherited a bunch of those hand cars about ten years ago, I have a bunch of the trailer wheels, very sharp looking wheel.
As soon as I put the trolley drive to bed, I am going to look at the hand cars, I have a couple of thoughts about it.
Barry
My lovely bride bought me one of those hand cars a few years back. It runs in fits and starts, has trouble getting around a small circle around the Christmas tree without a push now and then. What is its major malfunction? I did everything but dip in in lube oil. I just put it back in the box and put it on the shelf. I bring it out, now and then as static decoration when I have friends over.
It would be cool to be able to put a battery and R/C in it.
Actually the best drive was the oldest…a square cut belt. Once you removed all the grease they saved up from things they didn’t grease, so the belt wouldn’t slip, it works. No problem with the cracking of gears (they all seem to crack…puts the Connie to shame).
I have batteries in a box (pair of 9V in parallel), and a switch. Runs a a fairly prototypical speed.
TOC
I guess that I’ll have to tear it apart again (its been awhile) to see Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.