Rick, What kind of solder and flux you using? I’m guessing that the heavy rail mass is a good heat sync.
John,
Silver soldering requires more heat and while it could be done (on frogs) with an iron, a torch would be better because of the larger area involved in the soldering.
4% silver solder melts at about 475 and 5% at about 650 and so on up the line. The higher the silver content the stronger the solder but it very soon becomes over kill for garden rr application. This could/should be considered a form of brazing.
Regular old soft solder 60/40 (60%tin and 40% lead) that has a melting temp of 360-375, has sufficient strength for most everything related to garden railroading, excluding live steam, if properly applied.
Dave,
I use regular old 60/40 rosin core from Rad Shack usually in a .032 dia. for almost everything. The rosin core is just a bonus not really necessary.
For flux I have had the best luck using “Supersafe, Superior #30 soft solder flux” distributed by H&N Electronics.
It is non corrosive and non conductive and seems to work on every kind of metal.
There is more to good soldering than solder and fluz,
it is simple but the correct proceedures must be followed for good/best results.
Later
Rick
@John - Silver or Brass brazing stainless will give a better mechanical joint than ‘soft’ soldering, however for electrical contact what Rick has demonstrated is perfectly acceptable. The chromium in the stainless is less of an issue than the nickel, and both combined make standard soldering difficult with out sufficient heat. For frogs or solid mechanical connections I would still prefer silver solder.
@ Rick - Thanks for the nice demonstration, good information. As Dave has requested, please advise type of solder and paste used. Your comment on the 80 watt iron was real good information.
Remember, heat the heaviest material first, and flow the solder on the material - not on the iron. Flowing the solder on the iron will produce a ‘cold’ joint which will fail over time.
Bob C
Thanks for your comments guys. I’d try silver soldering my frogs first because I’m equipped for that - torch, materials, workspace, experience - but not equipped for braizing. I expect silver soldering would be more than adequate for this, but braizing would be even stronger.
Meanwhile there’s a little 55amp@20%-to-70amp@10% arc welder on sale up here just now for $52 that has me tempted.
I don’t know what all else I’d have to get, tho’ - I mean supplies etc…
There’s also a flux-cored-wire-feed welder 65amp@20% for 99.99 . If I got either one of these, it would be primarily for making SS frogs.
You guys might help me decide on all this…
Get the wire fed one…
Greg
John,
Do a bit of research. D\Even tho the one you are looking at is flux core, some flux core wires still need to have a shielding gas. Also find out what you will need for a primary side breaker. Some have some heavy primary side requirements. You will also need to make sure you wear protective clothing for arc welding. Keep in mind that a wire welder is brighter than a stick welder, so make sure to wear long sleeve dark colored shirts. Plenty of ventilation or do it outdoors. A good quality quick change welding mask, although not a necessity, is worth the investment. For doing frogs and small items like that, see if you can pick up a piece of scrap steel, 3/8 thick for hobby work, as a work table (size is up to how much space you wish to devote to welding). If I think of any other comments I will post again.
As for silver ‘soldering’, there is no significant difference between silver soldering and brass brazing stainless steel. Brazing and Soldering are used interchangeably with respect to silver. Both are done with the same Oxy-(insert gas here) torch rig. Mapp and Propane have both been used successfully, although Acetylene is far more common. The only difference I am aware of is the flux may be different for brass ans silver.
Good luck with your research and purchase.
Bob C
Well, I did slow down… I had told Greg on another thread that I was going out yesterday to nuy it, but then I noticed the sale goes on another week — I thought, aaah… time for me to pause and do what you suggest, Bob, & do a little research. So I didn’t get it after all…
I’m going to silver solder a bit of SS rail this week, then test the joint for strength… Bob, your post gives me further reason to pause - I don’t eant to set up a steel bench and all that… no space, for a start… I only wanted to have a welder (notice the past tense here - starting to doubt…) for these frogs, and then I’d have it for those VERY rare, like once every ten years - little repair jobs. No plans to go into production. Comments from you and Greg are both very much appreciated.
John,
The work table I was referring to might only be 12" square (if frogs are all you are going to do). The size would be dependent on what ‘other’ types of work you might also wish to do. A good flat piece of plate might also do you service with silver soldering, maintaining the flat and true nature of the frog, while the thickness would not warp with the heat being applied.
I didn’t intend to scare you off getting a welder, just wanted to not have you surprised at the myriad of other things that are associated necessities that the salesman might not mention when you purchase the machine, but will be more than happy to ‘assist’ you in adding those items later, increasing the cost considerably. I would also recommend, if one is available, looking into an adult night course on welding. The salesman will make it sound like child’s play when in reality it is a technical art form. Some people master it without much effort, others struggle. Oh… and one thing that wire feeders can do is to put down a bead of weld that has no penetration (strength) but yet looks good.
I am going to be posting a couple of pics of the new bridge on the club layout made by one of our members. It is 11 feet long and 3.5 feet high. I believe it weighs in at about 300 pounds. The bridge is made of 1/2" square tubing, 16 ga sheet metal, welding wire for the rods, and sections of expanded metal for the cross lacing. The expanded metal is not quite right, but I doubt many will notice with out it being pointed out. The bridge is welded with a small wire feeder. I will ping this thread when the pics are up.
Bob C.
Asked my welding friend about Wire feed on the SS rail… I told him it was 304 type… he recommended type 309 wire, as a general purpose SS wire that should work well with just about any shielding gas. He asked if my life had to depend on it, and of course it didn’t, and he said to just go for it. Practice up a few times to get the settings right.
Tomorrow I go get me a couple pound spool of 309 wire, and we will see whats the results are.
Dave
As promised, a couple of pics of the new bridge span. i took these about 8:00am on Saturday, so the lighting is early morning. Too busy with visitors to the layout to take any later on in the day. I will try to get some better ones next month when I get over there.
