Amazing one simple question can lead to a giant foot stomping fit.
We should be able to discuss our personal OPINIONS and EXPERIENCES with a product without the childish “I’m right because I said so” nonsense that this post has developed into.
I’m hesitant to lock this thread, it is a good discussion. Perhaps cooler heads will prevail.
They will if the sniping that was present on MLS is not allowed here.
I’ve got a lot of experience and no dog in this fight, but somehow there’s always someone here to stick the knife in a bit about my opinions not being factual, about how microprocessors and firmware bugs work, how it works for them, and how they have never seen that problem (shades of Aristo and slipping drivers)
I’m here to help, not pimp other products or continue the Kool Aid mentality, where anything negative is “hurting” industry. I welcome new products like any other guy, but when they come out half baked, and a person new to the hobby asks for advice, we should not give him a can of worms, but something reliable and proven.
Up to you Bob, I had intended to test and verify versions of all my TCS decoders this weekend, and if they are the ones that are supposedly fixed, return them. I have the WowSound and a number of Z scale decoders, all exhibiting the same erratic behavior, besides the loss of sound unique to the WowSound.
That will be factual data, as I think we will find the results are not quite as presented by TCS. But whatever I present will be facts, not opinions as Kevin’s little “dig” stated.
Greg
Greg Elmassian said:
Thanks Dennis.
So to make sure I understand, your JMRI/DecoderPro setup is connected to what hardware? The Lenz, or a DCC++ command station? (that was my question what is “between” decoder pro and the tracks.
I’ll try the full sheet read this weekend and report back. Will be doing it with a Windows 10 computer, Decoder Pro and the NCE USB interface to a PowerCab system, just to state my setup.
We had some readback issues with the first QSI decoders, until we realized that with verbal confirmation on, the decoder would not respond to the next read until it stopped talking!
Greg
Greg: to answer your questions:
-
JMRI V 4.10 Production
-
JMRI V 4.11.3 Test
-
JMRI V 4.11.5 Test
-
Lenz Set 100 V3.6 with LI-USB or
-
DCC++ using slightly modified code to read CV’s from N-Scale Digitrax decoders and also G-Scale decoders.
I use both the Lenz and DCC++ to read the CV’s into DecoderPro, depend which one is hooked up at that moment. Both do a great job with virtually no errors. Put the WOW501 on the programming track and the motor acts like a mis-tuned model T ford. Worst on the DCC++ command station. Put a G8, WOW121 or ESU and you get the normal little bump of the motor for the acknowledgement. Other than that the WOW501 does respond to operating commands just fine and runs very smoothly, sound is outstanding.
TCS has it now and hope to see there response.
Thanks Dennis, so when programming, instead of the short pulse to the motor, it sort of runs continuously?
I’ll work mine over this weekend… due to my (temporary) configuration at the time, I was doing WowSound programming on the main / audio menu.
Now I have both programming tracks (pure NMRA service mode) available, the NCE and the Zimo.
Will report back if this thread is not locked.
Greg
Dennis Cherry said:
Greg Elmassian said:
Thanks Dennis.
So to make sure I understand, your JMRI/DecoderPro setup is connected to what hardware? The Lenz, or a DCC++ command station? (that was my question what is “between” decoder pro and the tracks.
I’ll try the full sheet read this weekend and report back. Will be doing it with a Windows 10 computer, Decoder Pro and the NCE USB interface to a PowerCab system, just to state my setup.
We had some readback issues with the first QSI decoders, until we realized that with verbal confirmation on, the decoder would not respond to the next read until it stopped talking!
Greg
Greg: to answer your questions:
JMRI V 4.10 Production
JMRI V 4.11.3 Test
JMRI V 4.11.5 Test
Lenz Set 100 V3.6 with LI-USB or
DCC++ using slightly modified code to read CV’s from N-Scale Digitrax decoders and also G-Scale decoders.
I use both the Lenz and DCC++ to read the CV’s into DecoderPro, depend which one is hooked up at that moment. Both do a great job with virtually no errors. Put the WOW501 on the programming track and the motor acts like a mis-tuned model T ford. Worst on the DCC++ command station. Put a G8, WOW121 or ESU and you get the normal little bump of the motor for the acknowledgement. Other than that the WOW501 does respond to operating commands just fine and runs very smoothly, sound is outstanding.
TCS has it now and hope to see there response.
Dennis
What did the GURUs on the JMRI forum have to say about these decoders and the problems you are having?
Tom
Greg Elmassian said:
Guys, I have far more experience with software, firmware, and microprocessors and hardware than both of you combined…
Lay off the patronizing talk about bugs, etc. I work with microprocessors, firmware, and hardware for a living. Oh I also have degrees in this from a university. Stop the lectures and platitudes.
I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. Doesn’t that count for anything?
Greg Elmassian said:
The simple point here was that of all the decoders I would recommend to Daniel, the WowSound and the SoundTraxx are at the bottom of my list because of their track records, past and current.
Can we please just agree that we have different experiences with these boards? I like 'em and you don’t. They work for me, they don’t for you. I’m gonna recommend 'em, you won’t. In a world of many shades of grey, this is starkly black and white, pretty straightforward. If you want to say I’m “drinking the Kool-Aid” because I’m promoting a product I use and like, then please make mine cherry, and just a little bit of ice if you would. You just need to keep the drink cool, not take up otherwise valuable space. I mean–seriously–ever get a drink from Sonic? What’s up with their ice? What good is getting a 44-ounce drink if 40 ounces of it is ice? Give me a shot glass instead. It holds more. If I wanted a slushy, I’d go to 7-11.
(And–yes–I’m purposefully pushing this to the point of absurdity. I seriously don’t know what more there is to say, so I may as well just jump the shark and call it good. If you’ll excuse me, I have trains to run. Ta ta. 
)
Later,
K
Tom Stephens said:
Dennis Cherry said:
Greg Elmassian said:
Thanks Dennis.
So to make sure I understand, your JMRI/DecoderPro setup is connected to what hardware? The Lenz, or a DCC++ command station? (that was my question what is “between” decoder pro and the tracks.
I’ll try the full sheet read this weekend and report back. Will be doing it with a Windows 10 computer, Decoder Pro and the NCE USB interface to a PowerCab system, just to state my setup.
We had some readback issues with the first QSI decoders, until we realized that with verbal confirmation on, the decoder would not respond to the next read until it stopped talking!
Greg
Greg: to answer your questions:
JMRI V 4.10 Production
JMRI V 4.11.3 Test
JMRI V 4.11.5 Test
Lenz Set 100 V3.6 with LI-USB or
DCC++ using slightly modified code to read CV’s from N-Scale Digitrax decoders and also G-Scale decoders.
I use both the Lenz and DCC++ to read the CV’s into DecoderPro, depend which one is hooked up at that moment. Both do a great job with virtually no errors. Put the WOW501 on the programming track and the motor acts like a mis-tuned model T ford. Worst on the DCC++ command station. Put a G8, WOW121 or ESU and you get the normal little bump of the motor for the acknowledgement. Other than that the WOW501 does respond to operating commands just fine and runs very smoothly, sound is outstanding.
TCS has it now and hope to see there response.
Dennis
What did the GURUs on the JMRI forum have to say about these decoders and the problems you are having?
Tom
Nothing, it appears that it might be a faulty decoder. Wait and see.
Just received an email yesterday from TCS on my WOW501 decoder.
It seems the firmware was corrupted according to the email.
Your specific decoder seems to have been experiencing some sort of software glitch. After testing other decoders, I determined this to be a problem with your decoder only. I updated the decoder firmware and now it seems to be working fine. Tested GOOD on JMRI 4.11.3
Now have to wait for it in the mail and check it out myself.
Dennis, I finally went to get the versions of the software on my decoders.
My z scale decoders indicate version 49
The WowSound will not read back all CV’s, including the NMRA mandated CV 7, which is the version. It does read back CV 8 at 153, correctly. (It’s disappointing that the decoder is not NMRA compliant)
So, the version must be read from the audio, which indicates Mar 16, 2017, soundset 4 s/w version 4
So, would you be so kind as to post what your audio reported as a version before you sent it in? And what it reports now?
I will send this unit (which was graciously provided by Mike Kidman for evaluation) back to TCS, most likely, along with my Z scale decoders if they say there is an update.
ALL: Let’s keep this factual, and if need be, we will start another thread. I’m pretty sick of the politics right now.
Thanks, Greg
Greg, I doubt you’ll hear any difference in software version read back by the TCS decoder. My 501 diesel board was built April 5, 2017 (three weeks after yours), and my 101 diesel board was built September 11, 2017. The response from TCS which Stan posted on the previous page indicates revisions were made in May of 2017 to correct reported bugs, so I would presume that to mean that both yours and my 501 boards have the same or similar pre-May-revision software loaded onto it. My 101 board, being built in September, would presumably have this revised software loaded onto it. Both of my diesel boards read back the same thing yours does–sound set 4, version 4. Whatever software revision TCS made in May doesn’t appear to be reflected in read back.
That doesn’t surprise me. I know there have been revisions to the v.4 steam boards, but these revisions are not reflected on the Audio Assist read back. TCS upgraded the Audio Assist menu at the beginning of 2017 to include an option for manual calibration of the BEMF load sensitivity for the chuff response. The revised Audio Assist flow chart labels this revision 4.1. I’ve got one v.4 board that pre-dates this revision (January 2017), and the rest (Feb - Dec 17) have this revision. All of the boards regardless of build date read back the same thing–sound set 4, software version 4 under Audio Assist. There is no indication on reading the decoder information that there is any difference between them. The packaging the boards came in also indicates solely “version 4.” The only way to tell there is a difference is to compare the Audio Assist flow charts.
Ultimately, what your board currently reads back is moot towards the goal of repairing your defective board. You know whatever software is on your board (regardless of what it says it is) currently isn’t working for you, and you know the manufacturer has since revised the software to address known bugs. Maybe the new software will fix your issues, maybe it won’t. Maybe it’s hardware related, maybe it’s a quirky incompatibility between the decoder and the specific loco in which it’s installed. Replacing the software is a good first step in getting you a working board. If others have had success with these boards, it stands to reason you should be able to as well. There’s got to be a cause somewhere.
Later,
K
The email from TCS employee “Dan” indicates firmware versions 4.7.3, but with mandatory NMRA CV7 not reading back anything at all, and the alternative CV’s reading a date, it’s disappointing as a user that I cannot determine the firmware version of my hardware.
Clearly TCS works internally under version numbers, especially since “Dan” references 4.7.3 as the version where things are fixed.
I suppose I could assemble some approximation of versions by what features are or are not in the audio menu, but a customer should not be forced to become a “forensic software detective” in order to determine if he has the right version or not.
I’m assembling a factual email to TCS customer service, just need to supply the CV 248 through CV 252 information in my decoders, besides as the audio readback and CV7 information (I have Z scale decoders also).
I’m hoping they will tell me to send them back. They are all unused at the moment, although it will revert my eggliner back to the dark ages of DC, it was the test mule for the WowSound.
I am building a fairly comprehensive set of information on all TCS decoders: https://elmassian.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=440:tcs-decoders&catid=55&Itemid=504
I am NOT inviting comments on that page yet, I need to finish it, and also see what resolution TCS can offer, since it refers to my current situation, not good.
Greg
Greg
Just got back from running steam in Poland and just looked at the TCS Web page you are constructing.
I am truly sorry you consider me your nemesis no disrespect intended in any of my posts.
I am surprised you can not read anything in CV7. What system and programming mode are you using to read CV7? Perhaps others can try reading CV 7 on their TCS decoders with their systems to see if this is a universal result. If it is then it clearly is something they need to fix.
I would expect CV7 for TCS deciders to yield a value of a single digit of 4, or 5 or a double digit of say 47. Many manufacturers split the version number with the major release version in CV7 and a minor software version number in a manufacturer specific CV.
Greg one minor request. Please remove my post from your web page. When I contacted TCS I was given permission to post the message on LSC. I did not ask or receive permission to post anything on personal web pages.
If you wish to post the information from TCS on your web page I suggest you contact them directly for permission.
Thanks
Stan
I am not referring to you Stanley on my site. You have always been helpful.
CV7 does not respond with an NCE system nor my Zimo system, both of which are very versatile, the NCE can do direct, register, paged modes, etc. The Zimo system starts in direct and drops back to either paged or register, I forget exactly, I can look it up if need be. I sort of had hoped that knowing me for what, over 10 years, that I know how to debug problems and understand DCC, and have the diligence to carefully and thoroughly investigate before publishing this information.
The Z scale decoders read CV7, but the WowSound does not, but as I mentioned, you get an audio readback, but as Kevin has stated, apparently the audio readback is not connected to the firmware version. Not great. My theory is that they use the audio readback instead of a version, but if it is meaningless…
The Z scale decoders indeed respond with 49 for CV7, which I am guessing is version 4.9. I will also read the CVs 248, 249, etc. to get more of the information there, and see if the WowSound is different in this area also. The TCS documentation is rather fragmented, and one master document serves all decoders, but I know there are exceptions, from the few I have found. The difficulty is that not all the exceptions are noted in the document.
I could take the quote out and provide a link, but your post on this site is indeed public. Reading the post is not restricted in any way, nor is it hidden from Google. In any case I expect to get first hand information soon, just want to give them all the information I have. At that point I will relay what I have learned from directly talking to a TCS representative. I need people reading that page to know that my investigation and documentation is because TCS has stated something and I am working from that knowledge, and not finding complete congruency, so this is not a rampage against TCS, but a genuine desire to rectify the issues or at least resolve what works and what does not.
As I stated, I fully hope that I can send the whole kit and kaboodle to them, every TCS decoder I own, and give them an opportunity to see what can be improved. They do me no good right now.
I’m really surprised that of the very few NMRA mandated CVs (just 4) that there’s no response to CV7, not a meaningless number but nothing back… the motor pulses but no readback… crazy.
Greg
No, Stan, I think it’s clear to whom Greg is referring with the term “nemesis.” It is unfortunate, but not unexpected. Like you, I mean no disrespect towards Greg with my posts. I have tried to be helpful with his problems with these boards, but it’s obvious from this and other threads how those overtures are received. My questions for Greg are asked because it’s me who doesn’t understand something–they’re not questioning his understanding at all. Alas, Greg calls things as he sees them, and that’s the light under which he views my contributions. Nothin’ I can do 'bout that. I’m not going to change who I am; I’m not going to stop trying to be helpful. I’m not going to stop sharing my personal experiences to any who would ask. If sharing in such a manner earns me a particular epithet on another’s web page, oh well.
As the saying goes, if you’ve never ticked anyone off in your life, you’ve never stood up for what you believe.
But I’ll follow that up with this–I don’t care if you’re ticked at me; if you like trains, come on over and have a beer. Life’s too short not to enjoy what we have in common.
Later
K
Can we just all relax and play nice? I’m not in the babysitting business.
Maybe Bob, I’m not the one posting an entire message that is just personal about someone else. I thought that was against the rules. I’m sure I would be slapped for posting similarly… and I got slapped for trying to solve it and not involve you… so there’s no recourse for me…
Anyway, to put a close to this by me on this thread (I will start one on TCS decoders)
I sent a very detailed email to “Dan” at TCS, outlining my issues and all the CV values on all my TCS decoders.
Also, and Dan P will be saying “I told you so”, the Zimo was able to read the CV values on this WowSound most of the time, like 70% or so. The NCE system struggled and got mostly garbage and could never read back CV7, the version info.
The Zimo struggled, but then raised the programming track voltage to 14 volts, and like I said, would read the CV’s 70% of the time on average, some CV’s were only 50%
So I could read CV7 with the Zimo, which distressed me before since it is only one of the 4 MANDATED CV’s for NMRA compliance. That’s good.
I was also able to read (most of the time) the other version CV’s and also to correlate the firmware version, sound set version and date of the firmware load. As has been stated, the date might only mean when the firmware was written to the decoder, nothing to do with the version.
Also the versions for the firmware and soundset were just 4. Looking at “Dan”'s email above, he talks about firmware version 4.7.3 … so maybe the system is at 4.0.0 or maybe the complete firmware version is never reported.
I’ll get the full story very soon, I’m sure they won’t like reading my web site page, which has 25,000 hits where I present these issues that I and many people have observed.
Daniel, I want to apologize to you again for screwing up your original post, and turning this into a slugfest of who is right and who is wrong about the WowSound.
Please, anyone that wants to continue about the TCS, wait until I get a response back from TCS and I will create a brand new, truthful, factual thread on these issues.
Greg
I have been playing with my TCS WOW steam decoder.
I can consistently read any CV that I have tried to read without any problem.
I am using my Revolution DCC system. Seems to work quite well.
Tom