Well this interesting discussion furthers my resolve that going battery was the right decsion. I do realize why people donr, all with valid reason, but for my personal taste I am liking my choice of motive power all the time.
Such a great point I said it twice.
Greg Elmassian said:
I’ve done my best to explain, I’ll leave you guys with this:
how much continuous current (in a short through the wheels) does it take to soften/damage the wheel?
if you have a 5 amp fuse, how long can it run at 4 amps (hint, forever)
that said, what current do you think a 5 amp fuse blows at (hint, it is NOT 5 amps, look at the manufacturers specs)
The bottom line is that it is pretty easy to heat up a wheel if the short is through the wheels and you are pushing around 5 amps… the reality is that we CANNOT fuse our locos to completely protect from this when you have to allow around 4 amps for the loco in normal operations.
OK, you can take it or leave it. Everything I have said can be backed up by some simple research.
Greg
Thanks as this was helpful! I need to change my TE fuses to 2.5amp as that is what I usually pull on the Aristo Craft…wait I meant Crest Electronics power source meter. So I really should replace the 10amp TE fuses with the proper 2.5 amp ones in case of a derailment caused by my wheels heating up.
Yes, looks like someone is thinking!
So most fuses are set to blow at 200%, at least the normal precision ones we mortals can buy.
But there are surges, so the optimum would be a slo-blow fuse, which could withstand temporary surges, then pick one at the 200% rating.
Now, I’m guessing you are useing a trackside TE, so matching the fuse there to what the running loco needs is smart. If you are using more than one loco, then you have the way things are more typically set up.
It’s much nicer to replace a fuse than toasted wiring or circuit board traces. Left alone in a derailment, even softened / melted plastic center wheels can happen. I’ve seen a lot of times people forget to watch their locos, and the most common derailment is on a switch, and that is where the danger of a short through the wheels and internal wiring is greatest.
Regards, Greg
I liked; caused by my wheels heating up. …(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)
I got the tongue in cheek part John! (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif)He is a funny guy.
But I have also talked to a number of MTH guys who got the early plastic centered wheels and suffered destruction. I do realize that the MTH guys typically run HUGE power, like 15 to 25 amps, since they can run multiple trains per track, and their skates can be problematic since they are quite wide…
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I did not need to burn up a lot of RS-3 boards to “see the light” on how destructive derailments can be.
Greg
John Caughey said:
I liked; caused by my wheels heating up. …(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)
It’s as funny to me as the guy in Tucson, 30 or so miles from me, that claims plastic wheels will melt here! I’m a degree cooler by elevation, thankfully that has saved my secondary cars from flowing into my ballast! (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)
Greg Elmassian said:
look at the experiences with mth locos when they came with plastic center wheels… derailments that shorted as i described melted the centers… mth changed the wheels as i understand… did not say no good, i said BEST for battery… read carefully
Greg,
You did say “best for battery”, but you said it in an authoritative tone as if you were THE expert - and you didn’t add “In My Humble Opinion”. All the users of these wheel in sparkies seem to be surviving quite nicely. Just because you have ONE bad experience with ONE vendor’s wheel doesn’t make you the global expert. No wonder you keep annoying people - like you just did me! Humility is a wonderful thing.
Greg Elmassian said:
So, again, I said “BETTER” for battery operation… where no shorts “through” the wheels are possible.
I believe Pete has no MTH, only live steamers (or mostly) and no layout. Throwing what I have to say out the window without experience is your choice.
Greg,
No, I have no MTH - but they aren’t the only manufacturer in town. And now it is “better”, not “best” ? A sign that there might be other opinions that are worth airing?
I had track powered electrics for 40 years - and layouts to go with them. I am NOT “without experience” as you insultingly and ignorantly put it.
Hey! I have an idea. Why don’t we all just agree that they are pretty wheels, and just leave it at that?
Pete Thornton said:
Hmmm… Let’s try the photos again.
The wheels are a tight fit on the axles, but the countersunk screw will force them on square. There’s a pic of a wheel with the crankpin loosely screwed in the front. They provide the threaded pin with a brass sleeve.
For those interested, the dimensions are as follows:
[note +/- 0.005" ! I’m not that good with a micrometer.]
back-to-back: 1.578"
crank throw: 0.45"
diameter over tread: 2.38" (which is 48.314" in Fn3)
width: 0.275"
flange: 0.090"The tires/tyres are stainless steel, which makes the wheels quite expensive - about $60/set. However, we are talking to Slaters about making some tires exactly 48" in Fn3 using mild steel and they should be a more reasonable price.
Pete
I wish you would have made this post a few years ago when I modeled Utility. They would have been perfect and may still be perfect for Pioneer. Utility’s wheels were NOT quartered to standard practice and still a mystery to me and others. However Utility and Pioneer’s builder is long dead so we will never know. But if I would have known about the wheels at the time they would have been perfect without the counter weights. I chose to cut up Percy instead of Thomas only because of the wheel diameter.
http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/16185/cvrr-utility-17
Looking at the trains sitting on my shelf, it occurs to me that LGB has been using plastic wheel centers and metal tires for the lion’s share of their 48-year history. Seems to me if melting wheel centers were a problem, we’d have heard of a few more experiences in that time span. I think the track record is overwhelmingly in favor of this being a suitable means of construction for track-powered applications. I’m not doubting what Greg is reporting relative to MTH, but my bet is that such events required a perfect storm of conditions.
(As an aside, Greg, doesn’t your Zimo system put out 22 amps? You’re writing about 5 amps potentially being problematic, and you’ve got the potential for more than 4 times that on your railroad. Here’s hoping you don’t have a derailment. All that will be left will be the tires! 
)
Later,
K
LGB, the land of the 1 amp transformers?
Kevin, how come you always quote me wrong? No malice intended I’m sure. If I don’t correct you my system will be at 50 amps by the weekend.
I don’t use plastic centered wheels.
Greg
Greg Elmassian said:
LGB, the land of the 1 amp transformers?
Er, no. Their Jumbo is rated at 10 amps, their mid-range is somewhere between 3 and 5 if I recall correctly. Their starter set transformers are notoriously lethargic, but whose aren’t? We run 15-amp Bridgewerks at our club displays. We’ve had our fair share of derailments, and no melted LGB wheels yet.
Greg Elmassian said:
Kevin, how come you always quote me wrong? No malice intended I’m sure. If I don’t correct you my system will be at 50 amps by the weekend.
I would have to have quoted you in the first place to have quoted you wrong. I was asking about your Zimo system, whose current capacity I knew to be quite high, but whose specific rating I couldn’t recall at the time I wrote my post. Upon checking, it’s 20 amps, not 22. My point still holds; you’re writing about the potential of 5 amps on the rails all the while you’re putting 20 on yours.
Greg Elmassian said:
I don’t use plastic centered wheels.
You’re missing out on some very nice locomotives. LGB’s Amtrak Genesis is wonderful, and fits nicely into your preferences for modern diesels.
Later,
K
Kevin Strong said:
You’re missing out on some very nice locomotives.
It is a very nice locomotive but a bit lacking on top speed for my personal taste.
Rooster, if it went a scale 79 miles per hour, it would run your whole layout in a scant few seconds.
David Maynard said:
Rooster, if it went a scale 79 miles per hour, it would run your whole layout in a scant few seconds.
Maynard
I read your post twice before responding and I don’t understand? So you personally know how many feet of track Rooster has and have seen his entire RR? I’m beginning to wonder if answering/responding to posts without proper knowledge/facts is becoming a disease ?
I’m David Russell and I endorse this message
Edit: This post was brought to you by the Rooster Foundation and it’s colleagues of supporters
Rooster, once you showed us pictures of your railroad. I don’t believe that you have a whole scale mile of track in what you showed us. Even if you had a whole scale mile of track, at better then a scale mile a minute, it would take less then a minute to travel it all.
Jeez you guys will bicker about anything. We went from a wheel review to a doctoral thesis defense on the viability of plastic centered wheels on DC track powered layouts to a debate about some dude named roosrer’s scale milage. Wow
BTW Pete them Slaters wheel sets are damn nice.
Is the Rooster including his Guam trackage rights?
Devon; will not!(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif) edit to say: I deleted those
John