Large Scale Central

Run Trains and Charge Batteries During a Black Out? No Sweat!

Todd, do you know how long it take for the transfer switch to change from the utility company (SCE?) to the generator and how long does it take for the generator to come up to speed for full power? Back in the day I was a Project Manager on Hospitals in SoCal. Hospitals must have generators that come up to speed and change over (transfer switch) within 7 seconds. On my projects we averaged 4 seconds. So if you are the Doctor doing an operation think how long 7 seconds is if you have a scalpel in your hand and you are in a patient and it turns dark. It seems short, but believe me Doctors have yelled at me that 4 seconds was too long.

For your needs that is a great generator and even if it takes as long as 30 seconds to change over you will be happy. You will also have many friends coming over to sit in your Air Conditioning (assuming you have AC).

Interesting thread.

I have a small (7kw Cutler-Hammer/Eaton) natural gas powered stand-by generator that is used to run my basement sump pumps during utility outages and it is connected via an automatic transfer switch. The ATS only has a 50 amp capacity and, besides the pumps, has sufficient capacity to power the refrigerator, some lights and wall sockets. I’m on the valley floor and when the ground water level is high in the winter the pumps cycle on about every 5 minutes. It is about 12 years old and I am in the process of replacing it as it has reached the end of its usable service life. The jury is still out on which brand to get as I am looking for reliability since if the basement floods my wine cellar, railroad and I will suffer greatly.

I realize that this “hard wired” installation is more expensive than a portable one but it is all automatic and I don’t have to do much of any kind of maintenance other than change the oil once a year and an occasional tune-up.

It will take me longer than that. I intend to keep it in my garage, so must wheel it to the doorway (350#) to run the exhaust (maybe in the dark by flashlight), then roll out and plug in a 60’ cable to the generator and house (~60#), flip the 10 switches to off, fire up the generator (they even provide a remote start key fob good to over 100 yards), and flip the 10 switches to generator. Probably several minutes at best. Maybe I’ll make a shed for it if this proves too troublesome. With a shed, you can have other problems (e.g. overheating due to inadequate air flow.)

I looked at Generac but they are reported as being quite noisy for what they are, and their 26,250/17,500W is too much power for a 50 amp box (rated to 12,500 watts continuous) and close to twice the cost, so was out. Their 22,500/15,000 watt unit is not certified for use in CA by the CARB, puts out more watts than the panel can take, and is another $500 over what I paid. BION, this very CARB issue comes into play for most all generators now. Their 12,500/10,000w is $100 cheaper but only puts out 12,500/10,000 watts (Westinghouse does 15,000/12,000w), so does not achieve 50 amps (42 amp rating) and has a considerably smaller single cylinder engine. Also, it is not CARB compliant. BTW, the V-twins may not be measureably quieter, but their pitch is less objectional.

The comparable 15/12kw CAT (also a V-twin but smaller than the Westinghouse) costs $200 more ($300 more for CARB certification) and while not necessarily reported, the CARB version puts out less power accordingly (1kw less for start and run). The big Wen (13,000/11,000w) uses the same engine as the CAT and is ~$700 cheaper. This one carries the CARB and EPA certifications. Cat support can be good or bad depending on the CAT dealer. Wen support is ???

The major issue with generators is reliably. Most come out of just two Chinese factories and while they may offer a 2 or 3 year warrentee, you can’t find anyone to service them under warrentee and it does you no good. For the Westinghouse, I went to their website and found three authorized service facilities within 25 miles.

I think Colin assumed you have an automatic transfer switch, but I think yours is manual transfer switch like mine… automated ones are more expensive by a lot

No, a 50 amp automated transfer switch is not that expensive anymore because they are now used extensively by RVs. I could have gone this route but would need the automatic transfer switch and seperate subpanel to house the breakers (more space and $$$). Reliance did a nice job of designing the R510A for situations like this and at $400, it is hard to beat. A whole house auto transfer switch to carry 200 amps would be quite costly.

Anyway, how automatic can it really be if I still need to set-up the generator/cord?

BTW, for those who may have a stigma about such things, this system runs a “common ground” meaning that it shares the neutral and ground with the grid current, even when run simultaneously. Some generators with very sensitive GFI circuitry may not be able to use something like this. The Westinghouse wPro12000 (as opposed to the wGen12000 that I purchased) has a full panel GFCI so may have been a problem (plus it costs $200 more).

https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/stories/1021-How-to-Avoid-Tripping-a-Generator-With-a-Bonded-Neutral.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwr8zoBRA0EiwANmvpYCUvu7ggNPw76dP_spfmp5Iv3sML7zZ3Wjzf3-CX-tq7EynhgEIObRoC578QAvD_BwE

My current one starts within 5 seconds after the power is off and will continue to run 20 minutes after it comes back on as it assumes that there may be additional fluctuations or outages.

For what it’s worth Generac makes a 7.5KW generator with a 50 amp ATS. Various sites are none too complimentary regarding Genrac’s reliability, service and warranty, but they do sell a lot of them.

Yes I assumed that it had an automatic transfer switch. That is all I am accustom to. Even my Motorhome had one.

So when the power goes out you have to run out to the garage, find the cord, plug it in and start the generator?

Mark Hadler said:

My current one starts within 5 seconds after the power is off and will continue to run 20 minutes after it comes back on as it assumes that there may be additional fluctuations or outages.

For what it’s worth Generac makes a 7.5KW generator with a 50 amp ATS. Various sites are none too complimentary regarding Genrac’s reliability, service and warranty, but they do sell a lot of them.

Many generators have the 50 amp plug, but that does not mean that they produce 50 amps of current. It takes at least 12kW.

7.5kW/240v = 31.25 amps per leg at 240vac or 62.5 amps at 120 vac

12,000 watts /240 v = 50 amps per leg at 240vac or 100 amps at 120 vac

Colin Criswell said:

Yes I assumed that it had an automatic transfer switch. That is all I am accustom to. Even my Motorhome had one.

So when the power goes out you have to run out to the garage, find the cord, plug it in and start the generator?

In the rare occurance of an outage, yes. But certainly better than letting $1000 worth of food spoil and sitting in the dark without TV or internet or the ability to plug in a portable A/C unit in the heat of the day. I will also have full use of the kitchen (microwave, toaster oven, and gas stove and oven that are electronically ignited) and can even turn on the garage lights and open the garage doors to leave for stuff without dealing with the release cord. (Central A/C is on dual 40 amp breakers so is beyond the capacity of the box even though the generator could handle one of the two.) BTW, the generator to house cord probably weighs about 60# so I’ll probably leave it in place but tucked back out of the way. Should be easy to locate.

I’ve often thought about getting a generator setup, since we’ve had many outages here over the years. But we’ve pretty much used up all the space we have available to us, so I don’t know where we could put a generator. And all the homes are so close together here, I’m sure it would be way too noisy.

My circuits are all 120 vac and max out at about 35 amps if everything is on at the same time.

To address the noise issues I just let my neighbors run extension cords to the generator during outages. (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

I made this up today. It’s 60’3" of 4 conductor, 6 gauge with the requisite 50-amp plug on either end. I don’t think it will be a problem locating it, even in the dark.

letting $1000 worth of food spoil

Wow, I would love to raid your fridge.

I’ve done something similar, but shorter distance, I use 2 cords to my 2 220v generator outlets, so the generator can be placed outside… I have the transfer panels inside for convenience, actually are right behind the main panel, so I did not even have to splice wires for the circuits cut over, disconnected the hot lead in the main panel, then pulled it through the other side of the wall into the conduit for the transfer panel, then one wire back from the transfer panel to the original breaker.

I think that people need to understand that in So Cal, it is pretty darn rare to have a power interruption, so a higher level of integration, automation, and downright cost is not needed.

Greg

Forewarned is forearmed. Just a hint of things too come. From today’s Orange County Register:

WILDFIRES

California’s utilities gain vast new powers after fires

From the ashes of last year’s huge fires in Butte, Shasta, Lake and Los Angeles counties, this state’s utilities have suddenly acquired vast new powers to control and influence the lives of millions of Californians.

The new reality is that no one living near a potential fire area — and that includes wide swaths of this state — now can be sure when the lights will go off and come back on. It’s all because California’s big utility companies have accepted blame for contributing to the start of several multibillion-dollar fires and want no part of anything similar in the future. So anytime they deem wind and weather sufficiently threatening, they’re shutting down power to prevent arcing and sparking on their lines, whether or not they’ve been maintained.

This would be fine if standards existed for what constitutes fire danger from power lines, which helped start and spread fires from San Diego to Paradise, from Simi Valley to the Sierra Nevada in 2017 and 2018. There are no such standards.

So when Pacific Gas & Electric Co. announced it would undertake the year’s first power shutdown in early June because of possible record-setting temperatures and high winds in Napa, Solano and Yolo counties, anyone without immediate access to newspapers and electronic media had no way to know their lights, TVs and appliances would go dead for an unpredictable time.

That exercise, also affecting parts of Butte and Yuba counties, affected “only” about 21,000 electricity customers. No one knows how many had electric- powered oxygen supplies, CPAPs for sleep apnea or other medical devices. No one knows how many had independent power supplies, whether solar or from generators. But a lot of people and businesses were suddenly imperiled.

PG& E figured fire risks outweighed all others. “The safety of our customers and the communities we serve is our most important responsibility,” said one company vice president. Too bad PG& E hadn’t realized that before last year’s Paradise fire, or before the Wine County fires of 2017, both admittedly at least partly the products of corporate negligence.

One thing for sure: Before this year’s just-opened fire season is over, PG& E, Southern California Edison and San Diego Gas & Electric (along with several municipal utilities) will be doing the same kind of thing to many, many more people, with the same kind of notice under the same whimsical standard.

The lack of predictability here is the problem. Certain temperatures, wind directions and speeds must soon be written into firm standards for when deliberate power cutoffs can occur. Given sufficient notice via printed inserts in electricity bills, customers could know what to expect and when. Now they don’t. Which leaves some folks as vulnerable to power company judgments as they are to actual fires.

It also puts great power in the hands of power companies that have repeatedly proven themselves irresponsible.

The real question here is why state regulators,principally the Public Utilities Commission —

now many months after the last big wave of fires — still have not yet developed firm guidelines for utilities to live by.

This leaves many customers vulnerable to chancy, unreliable weather forecasts and the will of utility executives.

Last fall, when PG& E staged its first modern-era fire-prevention power cutoff, one reader near Nevada City called the move “blatant terrorism,” which was exacerbated when winds in the area turned out never to exceed a paltry 7 mph. He called it a form of blackmail, designed to accustom consumers to accepting the will of the utility.

The PUC already allows utilities to dun customers steadily for maintenance: they took in more than $6 billion in such funding over the last four decades without accounting for most of it. The new charges are for tree-cutting (often done against the will of tree owners) and other long-neglected fire prevention tactics.

So far, it’s all random, chancy stuff. Utilities and the public need rules for the companies to live by, giving millions of Californians some ability to predict when their power will be turned off, just in case they can’t or don’t want to read or listen to the news 24 hours a day.

Just a matter of turning off the power and connecting 22 wires, some stucco and paint.

The 1" conduit is tighter that a crab’s azz at high tide.

That’s a nice setup, with the relays transferring power, mine the switches route the power themselves, since it is manual, I can see yours could be automated.

Greg

No relays. Just 10 manual SPDT/center off switches and 10 circuit breakers arranged with 5 on either leg of the 240 volts from the generator.

Power gets to a circuit (e.g., fridge) from the existing box breaker to the spdt switch in the down position or from the generator, via the shown circuit breakers in the new panel in the up position, and you select which one you want with the switch. Power then leaves the spdt to the intended load wire (e.g., fridge) that you removed from the original breaker and is now connected with a wire nut. You can select one or the other, or neither but you cannot backfeed the grid with the generator.

The neutral and ground are common to the grid and generator so you only have one 6 gauge white wire and a 12 gauge ground to the new panel. Hey, it works for my trains using five different power supplies simultaneously and NEMA approves it.

There is a similar box made by Generac that cost $300 more, does not include the generator plug (that must be mounted in its own enclosure separately) that can be changed to automatic operation but it cost as much as the box ($700) to change it and it is only NEMA Type 1 for indoor use. But we both know that automatic transfer is really not necessary in our situations.

Yep, got my transfer panels and generator after the 2000 scare and the transfer panels were $45 each since no one knew what they were in Home Depot!

That row of components looked like relays, but I guess they are breakers, it looked like transparent plastic, thus the guess.

Completely agree on the simpler, more cost effective “manual switchover”, I have to remember to test run the generator every 6 months, and change out gasoline, although I use a stabilizer.

Greg

Just arrived and unboxed, with help of delivery man. That’s a heavy load!

The master bedroom was added to the house and its main functions are on a separate panel next to the big garage where the generator will be kept. I intend to tap into this panel and add an outdoor utility box so that I can plug these into the generator’s 120 volt lines and provide power to the master bedroom’s main circuits. (Some of its wall plugs are on the old panel and included with the wireing for the generator panel so it won’t be dark even if I don’t.)

In this case, I will use a 4pdt relay to power three circuits. The relay has 15 amp contacts and I will double two of them up for the 20 amp circuit that runs the space heater/hair drier. I don’t see this as a problem because the relay won’t be switching when the drier/heater is on, nor would the drier/heater be used in a blackout. In this case the relay will power up with the generator and if no power is received, the relay will tap the existing breakers so the connect/disconnect will be automatic.