Jon,
My min. curve is 9-9.5’ radius with a sweeping S curves to get out of the garage area. But the rest of the layout is planned to have 10-12’ radius.
Craig Townsend said:
Jon,
My min. curve is 9-9.5’ radius with a sweeping S curves to get out of the garage area. But the rest of the layout is planned to have 10-12’ radius.
OK - I’m back in the shop at work tomorrow, I’ll try and set up a R9’ simulation on the floor and see if I can get a hunk to comply. If it breaks Ill try wider.
Craig - I did the curve test for you today at work. I did not measure what I had, I’m guessing it was 8" wide and 12Ft long and definitely a Hardi cement board product.
I chalked out a 9Ft Radius arc on the floor, held one end tight to my workbench and forced the other end into an arc by pushing on the free end. Gallon paint cans were not heavy enough to hold it in a smooth arc, but I had it bent even tighter than the mark on the floor. I’m certain that with wide head fasteners (truss heads, or washers) it will conform to an arc even tighter without breaking. 9 foot radius (16 ft diameter) is pretty broad. I wouldn’t be surprised if you could get it to conform to as shallow as 7 foot radius.
That being said, the stuff is kind of nasty to work with. It will cut with wood tools, but will dull a carbide saw blade in a matter of hours. The dust is very nasty too - be sure to wear a good fitting dust mask when cutting.
Good luck with whatever you decide on.
Thanks Jon,
I just go home from the local big box store buying more lumber (the excuse was 2x6 for the kids swing set rebuild) and picked up a piece of siding to see if it would bend. Yep it flexed a little until I snapped by putting too much pressure… 16’ is kind of hard to manage in a 6’ truck bed, so I’m thinking I could ask,for them to cut into a 10’ and 6’ section.
Good luck with that, local places here will only saw cut wood, no plastics and for sure no cement products. Your experience may vary but as nasty as that stuff is to cut I don’t see it happening in store.
I did a quick sketch of the next curb area (a simple 90) and it looks like I can get by with just standard 2x4 cut at 65 and 75 degree angles. At the widest spot, it would only be 4’ deep. So I think that’s more manageable.
Craig, Dick at Port Orford found that 2 X 4 was too small to support his railroad, and went to 2 X 6. He said that he found the 2 X 4s sagged, after everything was in place, and he had to jack it up, and put in suports. I followed his lead, and haven’t been disappointed. Something to consider.
Hum, well that is food for thought. My little test bed (4x4) shows no signs of sagging but maybe the span isn’t long enough. I was only planning on 3/4" of dirt/ballast. It looks like Rick used/using 2x4 with no problems?
Craig,
My support legs average 30–36 inches on center and my widest tables are only 36 inches. The tables are backfilled 1 1/2 inches and we already discussed the cross member support. That is why I used 2 x 4 rather than 2 x 6.
Another thing I learned from a mistake on my first RR is to support the table on top of a notch in the leg not hung on the side of a leg with screws. This eliminates sag problems,
especially where 2 modules come together. A thing to remember is those screws can snap under certain expansion/contraction conditions.
When building with wood/wood products an important thing to remember is that wood moves, no matter what, wood moves. All we can really do is try to control that movement.
A lot of folks feel that my benchwork is way over built and maybe it is, but I have very little problem with sag, twist, expansion, etc.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think the cement board is a good idea. Might want to go to the manufacturers web site and check out the installation requirements for warranty of the product.
My 2 cents worth once again, must be up around a buck two eighty by now(https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-foot-in-mouth.gif)
Notching the 4x4 supports is an interesting idea. I might have to try that out. How are you cutting the notches? Dato in a table saw?
Most of the running areas (without structures) is going to be in the 10"-16" range. I don’t need more than that, just enough to cover with ballast. The “town” areas are planned to be much wider (6’-7’) as the major building takes up a 6x7 section. I might try joist hangers for that section like you would deck to add structural stability and keeping the 2x4 framing at 16" spacing (or do 24" with a 12" 1x1).
Notching the 4x4 supports is an interesting idea. I might have to try that out. How are you cutting the notches? Dato in a table saw?
Most of the running areas (without structures) is going to be in the 10"-16" range. I don’t need more than that, just enough to cover with ballast. The “town” areas are planned to be much wider (6’-7’) as the major building takes up a 6x7 section. I might try joist hangers for that section like you would deck to add structural stability and keeping the 2x4 framing at 16" spacing (or do 24" with a 12" 1x1).
Craig Townsend said:
Notching the 4x4 supports is an interesting idea. I might have to try that out. How are you cutting the notches? Dato in a table saw?
Most of the running areas (without structures) is going to be in the 10"-16" range. I don’t need more than that, just enough to cover with ballast. The “town” areas are planned to be much wider (6’-7’) as the major building takes up a 6x7 section. I might try joist hangers for that section like you would deck to add structural stability and keeping the 2x4 framing at 16" spacing (or do 24" with a 12" 1x1).
Nothing so fancy. After the posts are set in concrete, I shoot the grade with a transit and cut the notches in with a Skill Saw.
Oh, that’s too simple…
I did one initial shot with the transit and now I’m kind of playing it by sight. I guess I should be a little more precise and double check measurements as I build.
Both Dick and I used 8 ft lengths of 2 X 6, so if yo are using 4 ft lengths, you should be ok.
I noticed that Rick said he set his risers in concrete. I followed Fr. Fred’s (Ontario) idea of setting the riser on a concrete block, then setting that block on a 12 X 12 paver, so that it could move. It works. I have a problem with frost heave, so does Fred.
Steve,
I’m also using the pier block method to support the layout. Seems a little more flexible long term. The 2x4 that I’m buying are actually 10’ and 12’ lengths, but supporting them every 4’. I also think I using joist hangers will help. My civil engineering Dad is also trying to help me overdesign for a 4’ snow load…(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-yell.gif)
Lazy me hasn’t broken out the laptop to add photos on flickr to post.
Ps, I did add some photos to the Northwest Model Railroader group on bookface if you see my post.
2 step forward, 1 step back. I realized I made a mistake with the height of the benchwork, so I’m in screwing everything and moving it up a few inches, and redesigning the methods for the curve. Thankfully, this portion was just screwed onto an existing fence, so no 4x4 posts got abused. In one section I can get by with a 36" wide support for the curve.
This thread is worthless without pictures, but in being lazy and posting from my phone. When I get it all done, I’ll post some photos.
There is another thread going on this where I asked questions on materials that would bend rather easily and not break and be strong. I just checked that thread and as of this time there were no answers to this question. I did go to Lowe’s today and check out the 1x4" PVC trim boards, I bent one so far it was down to a 4’ circle before I stopped, it still didn’t seem that it wanted to break, I figured that was good enough, I only need it to bent for a 9’ circle of track, LGB 1600. I also gave it the stress test, putting the 1x4" PVC on edge and pushing down in the middle of the 8’ board, I put a lot of pressure in the center and I couldn’t believe it would not bend, or bow, I think I found what I was looking for, I now need to figure how far to set the post apart, I’m thinking 5’ centers. The only thing I see that could be a problem is heat softing the PVC and it starts to sag. Texas heat today was right at 100 degrees, not too bad in the shade, but my railroad will not be in total shade. I’m thinking 8 ft. sections 12" wide with X bracing every 18" or so. I want to use small grid hardware cloth between the PVC rails and just mount the track to the hardware cloth and use light weight ballast, this way it should not retain water and always be dry after rains. Just starting on this and I’m a person that will try to work out all the details before I start, I usually I get good results by doing it this way.
trainman
If of any interest; here on the IPP&W we use strictly 2x6 or 8 PT lumber for roadbed, to form loops (using minimum of 10 foot diameter curves) we use segments of the 2x stock, cut at the proper angles to form the curve to support the curve (loop), These segments are joined together under the roadbed with “Plates” of the same material, cut as long as possible, and clamped and well screwed using 3" deck screws. I forget the angle of the cuts, but it is easily figured out with a section of the curved rail. Yes you can use long sections of track and curve it yourself, but using the curved rail, lessons the need of a rail bender, which we do have, but seldom need, or use. We use a mixture of track/rail…which ever is less expensive at the time of purchase (Aluminium, SS, or brass).
This is just reporting our way of building the railroad. Others have, and will do it their way and are quite happy. It is not a competion.
At this time, we are rebuilding/upgrading an area known as “Spruce”, on the IPP&W. After 20 years it started to need help. What better time to do it, than now, with the Virus problem preventing our weekly operations. Views of the project can be found on “Mikes Blogs”, on the OVGRS web page at: www.ovgrs.ca
Fred Mills
Fred Mills. said:
If of any interest; here on the IPP&W we use strictly 2x6 or 8 PT lumber for roadbed, to form loops (using minimum of 10 foot diameter curves) we use segments of the 2x stock, cut at the proper angles to form the curve to support the curve (loop), These segments are joined together under the roadbed with “Plates” of the same material, cut as long as possible, and clamped and well screwed using 3" deck screws. I forget the angle of the cuts, but it is easily figured out with a section of the curved rail. Yes you can use long sections of track and curve it yourself, but using the curved rail, lessons the need of a rail bender, which we do have, but seldom need, or use. We use a mixture of track/rail…which ever is less expensive at the time of purchase (Aluminium, SS, or brass).
This is just reporting our way of building the railroad. Others have, and will do it their way and are quite happy. It is not a competion.
At this time, we are rebuilding/upgrading an area known as “Spruce”, on the IPP&W. After 20 years it started to need help. What better time to do it, than now, with the Virus problem preventing our weekly operations. Views of the project can be found on “Mikes Blogs”, on the OVGRS web page at: www.ovgrs.ca
Fred Mills
Fred, I understand all of this, but this is not the way I wanted to build my elevated RR. I’m looking to improve on the design with light weight materials that are both strong and light weight in design. Since I have already done some stress test on PVC 1x4 boards that I purchased at Lowe’s I’m going to build a section and put it to the test and see how it holds up under actual train running conditions. My biggest concern is will the PVC boards sag due to heat and time.
trainman
I look forward to people finding new materials, and new ways of building their railroads. Ken Brunt is a fine example of a person looking outside the box, as was Richard Smith, out on the West coast.
At no time have I ever stated, that my way was the best way, or the only way to build a railroad. It just works for us, and if you want to try it, it is fine with me. I look forward to continue hearing of your success.
Stay healthy…
Fred Mills