Large Scale Central

Railroad Police

Prototypes
#21

Sorry, Shawn, but you have missed my point, too. I understand the how, what I don’t understand is the why…

Who thought that this was a good idea, to put sworn LEOs in the employ of privately held corporations?

So what if its not practical for Home Depot to have its own PD? If one set of private corporations can, another can, too. Its not practical for the railroads, either. Its a huge, unnecessary expense. Its better to let the Feds do it. Cut costs, keep rates down, profits up. now that’s practical!

#22

Steve I ask the why myself. The public schools here have their own cops. But when a girl brought a gun to the middle school, I saw local police there to arrest her. I didn’t see a single school cop.

Without making a negative comment about the local police, I guess they have more “important” things to do then enforce the law on railroad property. So I guess that’s the why for the railroads having their own dedicated police. As for who thought this was a good idea? I would bet that person has passed away a very very long time ago.

#23

Steve … there are concerns like that for college police departments – see stories on campuses who don’t report crimes they’re supposed to, or whose “staff kids” get a pass if caught, or those campus PD’s whose officers joke that they’d lose their jobs if they ever arrested a student (staff member, administrator, whatever.)

The things that make it work are, first, the officers take the same oath as everybody else, and those offenders caught go through the same court process (jail, bond/bail, hearings, trial, and sentencing) as everybody else, with the officer making the same kind of complaint and sworn statement that a municipal, federal, or state officer might make (with the same penalties for perjury, fraud, etc.) And, for the most part, proper law enforcement IS in the company’s interest, even where it involves dealing with individuals or selected groups of people within it in a way that might be an embarassment (embezzling comes to mind, but there are other examples…) when investigated.

And, as I’m sure you know, your concerns hold true for governmentally based police as well. What happens to the constable of East Overshoe who arrests the mayor’s kid? He “guards” the dump for three weeks, and is eventually dismissed for unshiny shoes or something … and yeah, I have a specific locale and officer in mind for that fictionalized example, which is not unique.

You have a good point — private entities are frequently less trustworthy than governments whose taxpayers make up their pay base, but … not always, and most of the time it actually works pretty well where it works, and becomes a parallel for the activities of transit police which ARE government entities because the railroad is an arm of some government or other (note that this applies to Amtrak, which IS a Federal agency.)

Finally, remember that having your own police doesn’t mean that the local, state, federal Law Enforcement agencies around you don’t also have jurisdiction on your property, and provide some accountability to these private police agencies in the same way that they do to local, municipal, county, and state agencies where a major incident or questionable situation is involved, for example, in many places, the State Police (or SHP) investigates officer involved shootings when they occur, not because the city police aren’t trustworthy, but to avoid any appearance of exactly what you’re talking about.

#24

David Maynard said:

Steve I ask the why myself. The public schools here have their own cops. But when a girl brought a gun to the middle school, I saw local police there to arrest her. I didn’t see a single school cop.

Without making a negative comment about the local police, I guess they have more “important” things to do then enforce the law on railroad property. So I guess that’s the why for the railroads having their own dedicated police. As for who thought this was a good idea? I would bet that person has passed away a very very long time ago.

David, what you say makes sense, but still leaves something unanswered, specifically, “Why does one type of privately held corporation get to have its own SWORN police force, while others don’t?” I would get it, if the RR cops were private security, but they are more than that. Perhaps I’m dense, but I don’t get it. Pinkertons were private security. They captured the perp, but the arrest did not occur until they turned him over to Marshall Dillon, assuming that the perp survived capture.

#25

Thanks, Matthew(OV). I’m still stumbling over the “Why?” I guess, “That’s the way we’ve always done it,” will have to suffice.

#26

David Maynard said:

Steve I ask the why myself. The public schools here have their own cops. But when a girl brought a gun to the middle school, I saw local police there to arrest her. I didn’t see a single school cop.

Without making a negative comment about the local police, I guess they have more “important” things to do then enforce the law on railroad property. So I guess that’s the why for the railroads having their own dedicated police. As for who thought this was a good idea? I would bet that person has passed away a very very long time ago.

Dave I would think it was a security guard and not a sworn cop. This is the reason why the school cops were not their. They don’t have arresting powers. I know PA allows security officer some powers like the power to carry and issue tickets but only local ordinance. Some of the gated communities in PA have security guards that can carry and pull cars over but only in the community and they can only issue for rules and regulations that the gated community has. They can not enforce state law . A lot of people think they are cops. This might be the case in your schools. They security witness a crime, they might detain the person and then call the local police. In your case that’s why the local police arrested her. In most cases town police departments will assign a cop to the school. Their duty is to be in the schools during school hours but they don’t work for the school but for that towns Police Department. My local high School has a State Trooper assigned to the school but they also have a security guard who can not carry a gun or arrest. Again a lot of people get confused when it comes to authority etc… its because some states like PA that don’t help.

In a way you are correct Dave. Local police do have more important things to do. Protect its residents. A local police is paid by the town through your taxes. Would you want your local police department to be wasting man power on private property, like the railroad, property you and I can not be on or in some cases near. I would rather see them patrolling our roads, going to the schools etc…

#27

Steve Featherkile said:

Sorry, Shawn, but you have missed my point, too. I understand the how, what I don’t understand is the why…

Who thought that this was a good idea, to put sworn LEOs in the employ of privately held corporations?

So what if its not practical for Home Depot to have its own PD? If one set of private corporations can, another can, too. Its not practical for the railroads, either. Its a huge, unnecessary expense. Its better to let the Feds do it. Cut costs, keep rates down, profits up. now that’s practical!

Haha your killing me Steve. Im sure the railroads have enough problems that warrant its own department rather then tie up local police. The problem with the feds is they can only arrest for federal charges and not state. Because its private the feds like state paid law enforcement will not pay for private property. Look at a town police department. They mayor has the last say even if he is a civilian. That’s also why sworn officers have to follow state AG guidelines and SOP’s. The boss of that company cant make up the ruls to suite him.

#28

Shawn, I think that you hit the nail on the head, without realizing it.

Railroad cops do need to patrol railroad property, because sworn officers shouldn’t be tasked with patrolling private property. That said, IMHO, railroad cops do not need to be SWORN LEOs to preform their job.

#29

Steve Featherkile said:

Shawn, I think that you hit the nail on the head, without realizing it.

Railroad cops do need to patrol railroad property, because sworn officers shouldn’t be tasked with patrolling private property. That said, IMHO, railroad cops do not need to be SWORN LEOs to preform their job.

But they do Steve. Being sworn allows them to arrest for any crime without being held liable. If they were security they would have to call the local police to make the arrest. Thus taking away from your local patrols. I could see if minor things occurred on the RR but for one NJ transit police have some big cases and crimes they deal with on a regular basis. Im sure the same holds for Amtrac etc… Things from murder, rape etc… If they were security they would then have to call the local police. That again defeats the purpose because your still taking away from your local police department that your taxes pay for.

#30

Shawn, now you are starting to make sense. But, for the sake of argument, why doesn’t the same thing hold true for Home Depot? Why can’t HD have its own PD so the local cops would not have to be taken away from their regular patrols.

I know, I’m driving you nuts, but lets examine all aspects of this, before we give up on it, let’s subject it to the Socratic method. At some point, I will probably contradict myself, but that’s ok.

#31

There’s a book on the CP Police service. Part of the blurb reads

"From its somewhat disreputable origins of ad-hoc groups of semi-autonomous armed watchmen and strike-breaking thugs organized at the local level to the fully-professional force created in 1913 by the CPR president himself, the stage was set for more than a century of Canadian Pacific Police Services to come. The quiet efficiency with which its officers have conducted themselves in their ongoing battles with fraud, theft, smuggling, bombings, murder and mayhem, and the degree to which they have managed to avoid controversy and public scrutiny, speak well for the men and women on the “Railway Beat.”

#32

Red Herring.

#33

Steve Featherkile said:

Shawn, now you are starting to make sense. But, for the sake of argument, why doesn’t the same thing hold true for Home Depot? Why can’t HD have its own PD so the local cops would not have to be taken away from their regular patrols.

I know, I’m driving you nuts, but lets examine all aspects of this, before we give up on it, let’s subject it to the Socratic method. At some point, I will probably contradict myself, but that’s ok.

Because Home depot does not have enough crimes occurring or any major crimes to warrant a police department. For the most part they get things stolen on occasion but not enough to have a dedicated PD. HD is also a public place that we can go to. RR property we can not unless its a train station. It would cost HD more to pay cops then collecting fines from things that occur in the store. For a RR its probably cheaper to pay for a PD then what they would loose through theft, liability etc… if they did not have a PD. How many terrorists want to blow up HD vs our RR’s, a major transportation hub for the country. Looks at what railroads transport vs what HD carries.

Im actually enjoying this Steve. Its too bad you cant come over and have a beer with trains running so we can discuse this more.

#34

Thank you Steve and Shawn for the open debate on the RR police. My good friend Andy Saiez ( the guy that I built the water tank for) is a retired SF “Special Agent” (it’s what they called them then).

We had a similar discussion several years ago, I’ll try to remember how it basically played out. The RR police were Sworn LEOs for the state (Andy was a former police officer before signing on with SF). In the outer reaches of SoCal he patrolled some very desolate areas that the local police never went to unless called out on a crime call. Providing security for the RR where there wasn’t any local police, and rather unlikely that there would ever be any. As an example, Long holiday break for a track crew 80 miles East of Victorville, Work train left in the desert with tools, supplies and etc. Vandels shooting things up, B&E the supplies. He called in state police, was assisted by county and watched as several thugs tore thing up. When back up finally arrived they jointly arrested all of them.

Bottom line, the crime would never have been solved if it had been left up to the local authorities, as they had no reason to even be any where near where the train ROW crew was.

By having their own officers, they can put them any where they want, when they want, and cover their own needs as they see fit. At their own cost, and not at the taxpayers expense.

BTW Andy had assisted local authorities many times on calls when a local officer needed back-up and there was no local officer any where near. At the RR’s expense by the way.

Not only do they (RR police) have to meet all the state requirements, they also have to be well rehearsed in “Train”. Proper Safety, operations, and a thousand other things relating to the RR SOPs. That the local police officer, probably would never think of.

All together, I think that it is a very workable system. Now about “looking the other way” on some things. Integrity is every officers personal cross he carries. How he handles things are a personal commitment to him/her self.

#35

Steve Featherkile said:

OK, that’s how, the companies just did it.

Next question, and this gets to the heart of the matter, why did the civil authorities cede to a private company, policing powers? If the railroads can do it, why can’t Joe’s Trucking? Why not Home Depot?

Or, are the railroad cops really just glorified “rent-a-cops,” or internal security?

Not trying to be snarky or smart-a$$, I really want to know.

Railroads, by their very nature required some sort of security. Especially when transporting gold, money or other valuables in the past. Companies, like UP and NS as well as BNSF and CSX all have their own police force that conducts investigations. Both internally and externally. Amtrak’s Police Department for example, has a very tough job ensuring public safety.

I believe many companies simply rely on the local law enforcement in their area to help secure property and equipment as well as deterring criminal activities. Railroad Police are not rent cops. They have fully invested powers and can effect arrest like any normal police officer.

#36

"Some railroad police officers are certified law enforcement officers and may carry full police and arrest powers. The appointment, commissioning and regulation of railroad police under Section 1704 of the U.S. Crime Control Act of 1990, provides that: “A railroad police officer who is certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of any one state shall, in accordance with the regulations issued by the U.S. Secretary of Transportation, be authorized to enforce the laws of any other state in which the rail carrier owns property.”

Posted from Wikipedia.

#37

Thanks, Stacy, but neither of those quotes really answers the question posed earlier… "why did the civil authorities cede to a private company, policing powers? If the railroads can do it, why can’t Joe’s Trucking? Why not Home Depot?"

#38

Dave Taylor said:

Thank you Steve and Shawn for the open debate on the RR police. My good friend Andy Saiez ( the guy that I built the water tank for) is a retired SF “Special Agent” (it’s what they called them then).

We had a similar discussion several years ago, I’ll try to remember how it basically played out. The RR police were Sworn LEOs for the state (Andy was a former police officer before signing on with SF). In the outer reaches of SoCal he patrolled some very desolate areas that the local police never went to unless called out on a crime call. Providing security for the RR where there wasn’t any local police, and rather unlikely that there would ever be any. As an example, Long holiday break for a track crew 80 miles East of Victorville, Work train left in the desert with tools, supplies and etc. Vandels shooting things up, B&E the supplies. He called in state police, was assisted by county and watched as several thugs tore thing up. When back up finally arrived they jointly arrested all of them.

Bottom line, the crime would never have been solved if it had been left up to the local authorities, as they had no reason to even be any where near where the train ROW crew was.

By having their own officers, they can put them any where they want, when they want, and cover their own needs as they see fit. At their own cost, and not at the taxpayers expense.

BTW Andy had assisted local authorities many times on calls when a local officer needed back-up and there was no local officer any where near. At the RR’s expense by the way.

Not only do they (RR police) have to meet all the state requirements, they also have to be well rehearsed in “Train”. Proper Safety, operations, and a thousand other things relating to the RR SOPs. That the local police officer, probably would never think of.

All together, I think that it is a very workable system. Now about “looking the other way” on some things. Integrity is every officers personal cross he carries. How he handles things are a personal commitment to him/her self.

The bold and blue color in what I quoted from you just proves my point, that the railroads really don’t need sworn LEO’s. By what your friend said, he had to wait for CHiPs, and the County Mounties, before he could do anything. He could have done that (waited) as a security guard. He did not need to be a sworn peace officer. Granted, it would never have been solved if left to local authorities, but having him be a sworn peace officer did not assist in solving the crime, either.

#39

This is just a guess, but I suspect it may have developed out of the fact that for a long time, the railroads were operating in parts of the country which, at the time, were extremely removed from civilization and law enforcement. So, (again, just guessing) they asked for, and received, permission to put together their own police force. The circumstances that justified it were pretty much specific to the railroads, as nothing else was as widespread and remote.

#40

Nope Steve, If I recall correctly, there were 5 or 6 of them with rifles and hand guns. 6 of them one of him. When county showed up it was 6 to 3, with state in route, when state showed up it was 7 police.

I don’t know any, again, any officer that would take on 6 to 1 odds, alone, 80 miles out in the desert. That would be a death wish.

He did not have to have their authority to arrest them, but he couldn’t have done it alone.